A question for you card carrying members of the NRA.

Would you have been in favor of Bill Clinton & Janet Reno authorizing the NSA to monitor you're phone calls and E-mails, using Timothy McVeigh as an excuse to do it?

Of course not, are you trying to make a relationship between the NRA and al Qaeda? Or are you merely trying to compare Timothy McVeigh's relationship to the NRA and someone talking to a member of al Qaeda.

BTW, nice of you to admit your a Righty, .

Gun owning LIBERAL weighing in here.
How many more Timothy McVeighs are there? One would be too many, and I'm sure there are more than a few. Did you notice how all the anti-government militia scum became suddenly silent after 9/11? I left the NRA years ago when I realized it was nothing more than a political lobby group which backed politicians that I consider to be enemies of freedom, as well as home to a lot of whackos. While I'm sure many, many members are normal citizens, it is a breeding ground for domestic terror for some.

First off, you don't belong in this forum.. Your "I hate Bush" sig line gave you away.

Also, in 90 days, GUN CONFISCATION begins in San francisco.. Will you fly over there and protect gun owners and will you go hold a candle somewhere and say it's a beautiful thing?

http://www.sfexaminer.com/articles/2005/11...02_firearms.txt

well, fisrt off, if you want to talk about guns and gun control, and how the LEFTIES want to take your gun. When Clinton took office, I owned one gun. And before he left office, I owned 4 guns. If you want to know who wants to really take your gun, and make you scared cause you don't have one, just check out the PATRIOT ACT. which was written by republicans. In there you will find that under this act, it gives them the right to come into your house, without a warrent, and take you and your guns, and they do not have to give you a reason. (or at least a legitimate reason)
Im no rocket scientist, but to me that sounds alot like what HITLER did to the jews.

Would Janet have a purpose to listen to phone calls and check email?
I can see that they do it for a short period of time and with a purpose.

A couple of notes,
- in 1995 cell phones and email is not near as prevalent as it is today.
- If you are comparing NSA checking today with 10 years ago, there is a big difference between McVeigh/Oklahoma and Al Quada / Terrorism. Are you trying to make a connection and saying that McVeigh may be part of a bigger terrorist plot?
- How do we know that there was not some NSA monitoring? The NSA is always monitor communications around the world. (if you did not know) We have Military intelligence that, as their job, are constantly monortoring.

Bush is not listening to you or me

...... nice try though.

You liberals have got to give this up.

During the Clinton administration, he listened in on ALL conversations with that program called "Excaliber" I believe. He and Hillary hired private detectors to hound and threaten his bimbos. Dead people turned up in Washington Park and all papers disappeared. Rose Law billing records disappeared for 2 years and miracuosly appeared in the White House. 100 secret FBI files went missing and were found in possession of White House Security Chief. Janet Reno sent gestapo storm troopers to send a 9 year boy back to Cuba Hell hole. No, NO NO, I would NEVER trust them to wire tap my phone and internet.

I would not have a problem with them monitoring friends connected to McVeigh, which I am sure they did.
Your logic: Timothy was part of the NRA, clinton should montior NRA, al Qaeda are members of Islamic so Bush should monitor all Islamic members.

The Jews did notown guns in GErmany. AND, when did the governemtn come and confiscate your arsenal? or your neighbors?

Why do you hate so much?

Little, here is what you don't see; Clinton and Reno did all those things to protect you. Bush is just doing it to make money for the Nazi party.

Liberals are so fun and easy to pick on arn't they?

No. And this has got to be the most ridiculous question I have ever heard.

For example. For you extreme left wing liberals; Is it ok for your husband to get a blow job from another woman as long he testifies in a grand jury the he never had sexual relations with that woman and uses his own self blown ego as his excuse?

Hey, just remember, no American servicemembers died when that happened. And besides, I'd rather have a president who is a pseudo-gigolo, then what we have now. Dennis Miller said it best when he said "Bush thinks 'fetish' is what you put onto a greek salad, and Cheney's doctors have advised him not to even look at a bra ad, muchless have sex."

That brings another great question to our rightie friends; how many of you had your guns snatched from you during the Clinton administration?

Yeah and the only thing that was freed was Slick Willy's willy, from his pants

At that exact time you are correct. However, They are dieing for his inattention right now. He had his priorities wrong.

You can't answer this simple question? I think I know why.

Yeah, well that is still more then what Mr. Bush has freed.

Well I think they have it pretty good now out in the Balkans now compared to our friends in Iraq.

BTW it's "DYING"

You forgot about the BBQ in Texas and the murder of children at Ruby Ridge.

Simple question? I think it's a loaded question and an insult to anyone's intelligence

Would you have been in favor of Bill Clinton & Janet Reno authorizing the NSA to monitor you're phone calls and E-mails, using Timothy McVeigh as an excuse to do it?

Holmey,

Of course not. It's not nearly the same situation. Your ridiculuous question exemplifies the problem with the left. That is you only see the minute pieces of the issues that you want to and ignore the whole problem. Your question only proves why the right does not use polling data to make decisions--I would rather have some research and intelligence applied to national security decisions than have the public (only informed by the lefty press) making them.

1. They're not monitoring my phone calls. They're monitoring the phone calls of those with terrorist links. Despite your rhetoric, no leftist has yet shown evience of a general surveilance of the populace.

2. After 85 were killed in Texas at the hand of the administration you defend, will you continue to support them.

3. The Clinton administration was monitoring US citizens, not terrorists. Those 900 FBI files on their political opponents should be enough to scare anyone. Using the FBI as their own personal police force is, on its face frightening.

When will you separate yourself from the (historical fact) violent (Waco) unpatriotic (protesting the US from a communist country) HillBillies?
I won't tell any lies about them or you. But for you to continue to purvey
this lie is really pretty sad.

During that boom of the Left
wasn't there a mass-seizure in Australia?

Wasn't Mr. Bill supporting the PROC going to war against the ROC to re-annex it?

"Power proceeds from the barrel of a gun." -- another Leftist.

Your sig is a part of your post, so I'll comment on that as well:

Modern liberalism is based on a Marxist social dialetic -- not to be confused with simple open-minded thinking.

The inuendo of vote tampering is without evidence.

Agreed. But don't confuse the continuation of the "baby killer" mentality toward our troops as simple criticism. The Left is claim that we've killed all these civilians (the equivalent of the 60s rhetoric) but still without evidence. Just a bunch of hot air.

Agreed. It's not.

Waco -- Why did they send in the tank? That was nothing short of an attack.
On American citizens who had committed no capital crime.

Koresh was no hero. But he was a victim of the Left.

And let's not forget the (1996 or 2000, I don't remember which) campaign when De. operatives in DC were caught spoofing ESN #s to tap into Rep. cell conversations.

Your campaign funds @ work.

Not to metion the fact that they could have arrested him in town 2 days earlier with no one getting killed. Janet Reno is and was a butcher and a murderer but I never heard anyone on the left call for her to go to jail.

With all due respect, it is not a "simple question", it is a silly question. But I would be happy to answer it none the less. First of all, I don't even know if TM was a member of the NRA or not, but for the sake of arguement, lets say that he was. Did he shoot anybody? No, he blew them up with a home made bomb. I have been an NRA member for 25 years, and I can tell you that it is not a position supported by the NRA that the second amendment extends to bombs like these or WMD's. We don't advocate that individual citizens have the right to nuclear weopons either, although it would be a more tenable position than free speech extends to public urination, but I digress. Second, assuming he was a member of NRA, lets take a hypothetical that he (or someone like him) was also a member of the ACLU. Since he did this horrible thing, are you suggesting that anyone affiliated with any organization that he was also a member should also be subject to wiretapping with no other cause? I would hope not. Now, instead assume that you have TM's phone records (or a known Al Queda member) and you find that TM talked to person A on numerous occassions around the time he was producing his bomb and immediately afterwords person A called person B on multiple occassions. I wouldn't object to following the trail and also tapping person A and person B. If this were to occur on American soil between American's you would need court approval.

The NSA wiretapping is a different matter however. The president has broad Article 2 constitutional powers during wartime that cannot be legislated away (i.e. by Congress passing laws making the president do things they want) when it comes to foriegn citizens and agents. I could cite many examples from Lincoln to FDR, but I assume you want examples from your favorite president, Bill Clinton. I'll give you a good one, and not on a foriegner either, but a citizen of the good old US of A. Link here

http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200512200946.asp

Further, as previous posters have mentioned, BC started the Eschelon program (previously mis-identified by others as "excalibur") by which computers intercept thousands of incoming calls and e-mails and search for key words and then spit out suspicious comuniques Clinton's justice department also argued that it had the authority to ignore "encroachments" on this presidential authority. And this was in peace time. link here

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OWJhY...2RjMGI4MWQ1ZTI=


Now a simple question for you, a Nixon aide went to jail for having a single FBI file on a political opponent. The Clinton administration illegally had dozens of FBI files on political opponents. Where were you then? The fact is you people don't really care about anybody's privacy, as long as it is your own doing the snooping.

more like hundreds of files , but hey they said they didnt look at them so it ok.

This is just the kind of question I would expect from a liberal. Let's give a simple answer. If the NRA ever morphs from its current form as a defender of the rights of Americans to keep and bear arms under the second amendment of the US constitution into an organization that instead advocates killing Americans and destroying the USA (like Al Queda is) or if it starts to advocate the murder of innocent people in buildings that are owned by the federal government as a means of getting back at the government (as McViegh did) then yes, absolutely, at that time I would advocate monitoring phone calls and e-mails of NRA members. I expect though, if the NRA did morph into either of these types of organizations we could expect the American left, the press, and the ACLU to rise to its defense and prevent any monitoring whatsoever.

The monitoring of phone conversations would be so flat out boring in my families case that I won't mind any monitoring of calls is it was instrumental in catching a future Tim Mcveigh. I grew up with a `party line' that anyone could be listening in on at any time. I don't view it as a big deal.

Best Regards,

JNagarya,
While I appreciate your sentiments, it is forbidden for an avowed liberal to post in the Conservatives only forum. Please stay out of this area.

AmtrakMatt
MODERATOR