Let me tell you how dangerous it is to blame by association. Many years ago, when I was just a reporter for the local newspaper, I was assigned to a meeting of a group called "Save The River." I went and did my notes and filed my story, and then there was another meeting and another. Over the weeks/months, I got to be friends with the proponents of this idea. I joined the group and it was really a rewarding period, during which we all worked to save the St. Lawrence River from pollution.
Quite a few years later, Abbie Hoffman turned himself in and it made the national press and television outlets. Yeah! Abbie Hoffman was Barry Freed, my friend who headed up the "Save The River" venture.
"Despite being "in hiding" during part of this period, living in Thousand Island Park, a private resort on Wellesley Island on the St. Lawrence River, on under the name "Barry Freed," he helped coordinate an environmental campaign to preserve the St. Lawrence River (Save the River organization).[8] In 1980, he surrendered to authorities and received a one-year sentence. On September 4, 1980, he appeared on 20/20 in an interview with Barbara Walters. During his time on the run, he was also the "travel" columnist for Crawdaddy! magazine." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbie_Hoffman
Yeah! So you could say I was a close, personal friend of a member of the Chicago Seven. I dare say that today, they would be regarded as, and treated as, terrorists.
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/trials2.htm
We have to be very careful when we assign a role in a nefarious act to those who knew the actors - after the fact. There is still a desire out there to connect Barack Obama to Bill Ayers, who he met many years later as a member of a far-from-terrorist group.
You never know the history of your co-workers until their history is exposed for political gain, should you have the temerity to seek public office....
Sallie

for some reason this reminded me of all the boomers out there who lived during the 60's....but now act as tho they didnt....engage in it.


anyone of a certain age group..trust me....they lived the 60's.

You got that right!!! Many of us have accrued dossiers as a result of the anti-Vietnam war movement. We weren't thugs and terrorists, we just saw the wrongness of the war.
But here's another case in point, that has nothing to do with war: My brother had a friend who ran the local school's athletic venue. He was in charge of the activities that took place in the city's "Golden Dome." He booked events and cleared the ice for hockey games and set up the court for basketball games.
My brother even was the co-host of a radio program on the local station with this guy who was convicted of theft and embezzlement of several hundred thousand dollars. If my brother had run for public office, would this association have come back to haunt him?
You bet it would! Guilt by association....
Sallie

As I have pointed out to all the RWers on this board previously;
If they should EVER decide to run for public office;
I will be certain that their local media know what close personal friends they are.................
......................to ME!



Mac

How could you be so cruel???
A fate worse than death....
Sallie

Being "close friends" with such a far left radical, practically Communista as myself should be sufficient to scuttle any possibility that they would win a Republican Primary Election.

"Those who live by character assassination, may die by character assassination."

(I really AM an evil bastard.)



Mac

I'm wondering why this has applied to Palin and her association with the 'to be' criminal Sen Stevens?? Not a word of this yet.

Jailbush
The "IOKIYAR" Rule.
("It's OKay If You're A Republican")



Mac

In light of United We Stand's new post regarding Palin's assertion that Obama is palling around with known terrorists, this topic is one I feel deserves bumping.
I'm sure we all have a story to tell in this vein. I'd like to hear from others on this board. Have you ever been friends with someone who turned out to be "a person of ill-repute" or even infamous?
Sallie

The Palin soundbite we didn't hear?:
"The heels are off & the lipstick is on? Brad? Where are ya now? Brad?, Bra-a-ad?"


Rove-dirty.
Now that little miss caribou is past her one "debate..."

Time for our gloves to come off too, I think. McCain's unleashed his snide attack dog.
I guess pageant training helps. And anything that hides the problems we face, thanks in large part to de-regulators
and people who will ride us into the ground with ideology.

See crooksandliars
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/10/04/m...t-against-obama

What a surprise! I thought this thread was going to be about Obama's trying to paint McCain as guilty by association with Bush.


So how dangerous would it be if someone thought the less of you for knowing Hoffman?
may I ask if you knew it was Abbie Hoffman at the time? He was on the lam at the time for a cocaine trafficking conviction. I suppose there's nothing too bad about having drug dealers as friends. I've quite a few myself, although I never gave aid or comfort to someone on the run after being convicted. My opinion is that if you're going to deal drugs, you should be clever enough not to get caught. If caught and convicted, serve your time -- don't bother me and try to drag me into things.

I assume you didn't know who he was. So how is that equivalent to Obama who knows who Ayers is and always did? And Obama's campaign said that they remain friendly -- and that was AFTER Ayers trampled the American flag.

Would you continue to be "friendly" with someone who trampled the American flag in public to promote a book?

Would you lie about your relationship with Hoffman? I hope not; but Obama's campaign did lie about his relationship with Ayers.

There are many differences if you ask me.

You guys just don't get it, do you? Your HATRED for Obama keeps you from thinking straight. Ayers was a ACQUAINTANCE, nothing more. You have NO IDEA if Obama even KNEW of Ayer's past, he was just a tiny child when it all happened.

If you want to manufacture outrage over Obama, then there's NO WAY you could excuse McCain for his CLOSE TIES to Charles Keating. After all, he and his family went on VACATIONS with Keating, and he went to bat for Keating to regulators. Yet Keating was a criminal swindler who took the life savings of many people and went to prison for his crimes.

Yet it won't bother you. After all, RICH crooks are just fine with you guys. After all, you keep voting for them.

GoU

To hear Obama's campaign talking, you'd think that was all there was to it.

However, we know that Obama had his political career launched at Ayers' house. We also know that Obama and Ayers both served at the Woods Fund -- where they gave money to Rashid Khalidi -- a man with known ties to Palestinian terrorists.

We also know that Obama and Ayers both served on the failed Annenberg Challenge -- that Obama and Ayers okayed a grant to Ayers.
The question is if McCain still considers Keating a "friend." I don't know, do you? Did Keating ever say, "I don't regret it -- I regret not swindling more people?" Do you think McCain would still be friends with someone if he said such a thing?

I know that Obama still considers himself on a "friendly" basis with Ayers, and that's after Ayers trampled the American flag and said he wasn't sorry for what he had done.

No, the rich crooks aren't fine with me. I think Senator Obama has quite a few of those: Tony Rezko, Nahmi Auchi, Franklin Raines, James Johnson, and Penny Pritzer.

Keating is still unrepentant, and blames the regulators for his crimes. And remember, McCain supported and defended Keating.

AND - he took trips to Keating's private island on Keating's private jet.

It's quite clear that you have a HUGE double standard here. If it was OBAMA and Keating, you'd be frothing at the mouth.

Bush has trampled the American flag, and McCain still supports him!
So does McCain: GW Bush, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, Ted Stevens, "Scooter" Libby... ect.

Heck, even Gov. Palin. She is refusing to cooperate with a bi-partisan investigation into her actions.

I guess they ARE fine with you.

GoU

The talking points have been distributed, and the course of action laid in. They cannot speak of the issues, so they are gearing up for the character assassination (see sample**). Damn the facts, just dirty him up as much as possible. But like Coleman's backfired attacks on Franken putting Franken in the lead, theses tired old strategies will fool nobody who's thinking of changing their vote. No, it's simply nectar to the nefarious.

** "The LA Times scoops the Virginia media with this column from the McCain campaign's official Buchanan County representative. You need to read this column to believe it. In "humor" he accuses Obama of wanting to paint the White House black, supporting reparations, changing the national anthem to the "black national anthem", teaching "black liberation theology in all churches", and replacing the flag with a "star and crescent logo". "

If they were supporting education of children and willing to work with me on the issue for the advancement of our youth, absolutley.

I suppose for the RW, appearances are more important than advancing the educational goals of inner city schools. That fits with the last 200 years of history.

Quite franklly there are NO difference, if you ask me. Here's why:
Bill Ayers was never brought to trial or convicted. When Barack Obama met him, Ayers was (and still is) a Distinguished Professor of Education at the U of Illinois at Chicago. Obama was 8 years old when Ayers supposedly committed the crimes you insist on saying he committed. They both served on a committee, and as such, most likely became friends on some level. Have we heard anything about the other members of this committee? Were they all pals and BFFs of Bill Ayers? Are all of Ayers' friends and fellow faculty members painted by your broad brush?
Bill Ayers wasn't "on the lam" from any charges whatsoever. Charges against him were dropped before he turned himself in, along with Bernadine Dohrn, in 1980. I find it highly unlikely that Obama applauded whatever heinous acts you attribute to Ayers. And, even if they became friends, I sincerely do not see the harm in it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers

If I had known that Barry Freed was Abbie Hoffman, it wouldn't have bothered me in the least. He and the other Chicago 7 were acquitted (they were represented by Ron Kuby and William Kunstler). I certainly didn't know that he was on the lam because of a cocaine conviction. Maybe I should have known, but I didn't, so if I had met him as Abbie Hoffman, it would have been all the same to me. I was an adult when the Chicago 7 were tried and I was as fervently anti-Vietnam War as they were. http://www.vietnamwar.net/Chicago.htm

You might also look into the career of Tom Hayden, another member of the Chicago 7 and SDS, who also led the charge for Civil Rights and an end to the Vietnam War. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Hayden

You have to remember that I'm old enough to be Barack Obama's mother. My children wouldn't know any of these people. Were they to meet them later in life, the fact that they were never convicted of any crimes (except for Abbie and the coke), would carry more weight than the accusations. Like Mac McFadden, I was also heavily involved in both the Civil Rights movement and the Anti-Vietnam-War movement. For people like us, it was a moral choice and neither of us has regrets. Maybe you'd have to have been there to understand.
Sallie

If people want to play the "guilt by association" card.....they had better make sure thay have cleaned out their closet first. This stuff is a very dangerous game to be playing......I have never seen one instance where "guilt by association" hasn't come back to haunt the person who through that boomerang in the first place......

Wow! I wonder if the rest of us who gave Obama's campaign $200 can be called an "upscale donor" too.......I didn't have a tea for Barack....but we did have a champagne toast for him here at my house for some of the local Obama supporters when he won the nomination..... Thanks Sallie, for this post......

That's because we share the same values: Civil Rights, Women's Rights, and an aversion to War - except as a sheer necessity.
There were hundreds of thousands of us back in the day who defied civil authority to end segregation and an end to the mindless, senseless war in Vietnam. Later, many of us joined the Women's Movement because it all encompassed the same moral values we hold dear.
I've donated more than $200 to the Obama campaign, and I dare say that I'm not alone - but no teas or champagne toasts (although I wouldn't be adverse to such).
But for the likes of Abbie Hoffman, Tom Hayden, Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn, and the example they set - putting their bodies out there, not just their mouths, some of the most important movements of our lifetime would have fizzled.
Rather than condemn them, I applaud them for encouraging me to act and engage in a united effort.
They can rebuild that police monument in Haymarket Square a hundred times and it will be blown up a hundred times because it's a monument to those who died in an effort to PUT DOWN BLACKS in our society, not a true act of bravery on the part of people fighting for human rights in the United States.
Where are the monuments to the students mowed down at Kent State? I hope they're there....
Sallie

Yes the guilt by association goes to a ridiculous level with Obama. Without question it's racism through and through. But I'm going to revel in joy when the right-wing Rovian juggernaut is dismantled once and for all by a black guy whose last name ends in a vowel. That is just some sweet, sweet poetic justice.


A much more ominous association would be the one that the Bush clan has with the Saudi royal family. How much money was funneled to the Bush family by the same Saudi scumbags who also funneled money to al-Qaeda, or at the very least are well acquainted with people who did and still do.

My gosh there's even pictures of GWB holding hands with the Saudi prince. GASP.


how many terrorists does this guy know?!

Click to view attachment

can't say that I have been exposed, but I do feel guilty as hell after reading all of your and Mac's posts.. for what I haven't done.

I was only in my mid teens in the late sixties and didn't really understand the scope until Kent State.. after that I was just another 'complainer'..

one night every year my wife & I have dinner with her side of the family.. her side comes with ultra high brow conservatism .. the first ten years they scared the sh!t out of me.. or should I say intimidated the hell out of me.. and that was when I was a registered republican.. now I just truely love them.

thanks for sharing all that you did..

..

Was this before or after the investigation that cleared McCain of all wrong doing?


Those are mostly open for debate, a matter of interpretation. Scooter Libby's case is not open for much debate since he was convicted in a court of law. I consider him guilty then of perjury just as I considered Bill Clinton guilty of perjury.

William Ayers trampled the flag literally. That is not a matter of interpretation. And you lack any defense of Obama's remaining friends with him, so you try to change the subject. Even if I were to agree with you, it would not change Obama's friendship with this known terrorist who defiantly told the New York Times he regreted nothing.

It's fine with me if someone doesn't want to play along with a witchhunt. I have the opinion that no one should be required to give testimony about himself or herself.

If the "bi-partisan" investigation has enough evidence to show she did something wrong, why do they need her to talk? If they lack enough evidence but are grasping for straws, what are you talking about?

Moreover, Monegan already stated that no one ever told him to fire Wooten. He said he felt "pressured." That sounds like terribly slim evidence to me.

In Ayers' case, we know he was guilty since he admitted it after getting off on a technicality.

You ignore the fact that McCain ADMITTED wrongdoing after the fact. And he was admonished by the Senate, he wasn't give a clean bill. But, you aren't honest enough to admit it.

Double standard! Clinton was NEVER convicted of perjury in a court of law. Yet you use the "cleared of all wrongdoing" defense with McCain.

Sorry, you lack the ability to deal in truth. There's not a FRIENDSHIP there. He's an ACQUAINTANCE. There's quite a difference. He served on a board with him. I've served on committees with many company people I couldn't stand, and your standards would have me having endorsed everything they've ever done.

Guilt by association, that's all you have.

So, you would have been fine with Clinton blocking impeachment hearings? Because that WAS an witch hunt.

I guess Republicans are above the law and can block investigations all they want, in your book.
So? Was Obama part of the crime? Did he EVER endorse what Ayers did? (Hint: no, he didn't, he spoke out AGAINST Ayer's past). But, none of that matters when you are just smearing, does it?

GoU

It was Hoffman I said was on the lam.

How old Obama was at the time is not relevant whatsoever. No one was imagining a tiny Barack Obama helping William Ayers build bombs. This is a red herring -- and when people resort to red herring arguments, it tells me they've run out of rational things to say.


That was the question. If you had known then that he was on the lam on the cocaine charge, would you have thought differently of him? Would you have aided and abetted him?
I was around then.

One of my best friends (now dead) was convicted of burning draft card files. He did not injure or threaten any people. He did not try to avoid the law, but waited to be arrested. He believed in peaceful resistance; and if you had to break the law, you should allow the authorities to arrrest you and prosecute you. I agree with that position. I can say, without any shame or embarrassment that I considered him one of my best friends.

Ayers would have been convicted if the prosecutors hadn't botched the case. He admitted his guilt when he knew he couldn't be tried again.

If you think William Ayers, unrepentant terrorist who tramples the American flag, would make a good friend, then I see why you see nothing wrong with Obama's being his friend. I could not be friends with someone who plotted to blow up the Pentagon unless he expressed remorse. I can forgive people since I believe we all make mistakes and can learn; but no, I could not be friends with someone who had no remorse.

Moreover, I wouldn't feel safe around Ayers. It's bad enough to be a terrorist making bombs, but to be an incompetent terrorist who blows up his own girlfriend is truly horrendous.

The man continues to be incompetent. His collaboration with Obama at the Annenberg accomplished nothing except wasting millions of dollars.

Via CNN, here's the FACTS about Ayers and Obama:

Verdict: False. There is no indication that Ayers and Obama are now "palling around," or that they have had an ongoing relationship in the past three years. Also, there is nothing to suggest that Ayers is now involved in terrorist activity or that other Obama associates are.

All you have is LIES.

But that's all you need, right?

GoU

Oh! Stop it! Maybe you'll get it when somebody invades your rights. Would you just stand silent if this country was seriously invaded by a foreign power, or would you become an insurgent?
You just lack the ability to put the shoe on the other foot.
Bill Ayers continues to be a homeboy terrorist? What nonsense! What has Bill Ayers done in the past 30 or more years that would lead you to distrust him?
I've trampled on the flag and I have no remorse for doing so. Why? Because the flag of the United States was being used as a rallying point for those who would deny others their civil rights, and as a reason for what history will prove to be an idiotic war in Vietnam.
It wasn't MY flag, it was the flag of those who got rich on warfare - much the same as now. Profiting by the deaths of my fellow countrymen. It wasn't MY flag, when it was worn on the uniforms of people who had no compunction about mowing down unarmed anti-war protesters.
Don't even try to tell me you were there. You were far from there. And, if I had known that Abbie Hoffman was on the lam from a cocaine trafficking conviction? I can't answer that. If it was a marijuana conviction, I'd have been okay. But it never came up, just as, I'm sure, that Bill Ayers past wasn't the focal point of the members of the committee working on schools in Chicago.
Just because you, personally, don't trust Bill Ayers, doesn't mean that the rest of the world needs to follow your lead. Who the hell are you to impose your fears on others?
If you're that afraid of Bill Ayers, you should be terribly afraid of some members of this board....
Sallie

McCain SEVERED all connections with Keating when he learned Lincoln was under criminal investigation. John Glenn (D-OH) did not, remember that? But I wouldn't allege that Glenn did anything wrong. Definitely stupid, yes. The Senate concluded that McCain and Glenn were guilty of "poor judgment" but had not broken any laws or rules. The conduct of Alan Cranston (D-CA) was said to have "improper and , Dennis DeConcini (D-AZ), and Donald W. Riegle (D-MI) were reprimanded for acting improperly by interfering with the investigation.

So far as I know, both Glenn and McCain learned from this experience.

A mere technicality since Judge Susan Webber Wright reduced the charge to "contempt of court" for his refusal to testify truthfully. She clearly wished to avoid putting a felony charge on the record of a sitting President.


Take this objection up with Obama's campaign which used the word "friendly" and which also misrepresented the relationship between the two.


He didn't have the authority to block impeachment hearings. That doesn't mean he had to give them any evidence. Did he go testify in person?

I would have voted to convict him on the perjury charge although Judge Wright's contempt charge came later. It doesn't set a good example if we let anyone lie in court. That included Libby or Clinton. If they finally drag Rove in and he lies, then I'm in favor of convicting him of perjury too.

Take the "Republicans above the law" up with the Democrats. Take it up with both the House and Senate since they could send people themselves and arrest Rove. They could imprison him in the tiny jail they have. It's what I would do if I were Pelosi or Reid. But those weak-kneed people? They do nothing.

Weinstein and Schumer okayed Mukasey's appointment, with Weinstein making the weakest of excuses. It was clear to me, at the time, that Mukaseys was NOT going to be independent of Bush. I would NEVER have rewarded Bush by approving Mukasey while Bush was DEFYING the request for information and co-operation.

How hypocritical that is to demand Mukasey do something that Reid or Pelosi could do themselves if they had any balls.
You're inventing words and putting them in my mouth. I would NEVER have voted to approve Mukasey in the first place; and in the second place, I'm in favor of sending the sergeant-of-arms from either House or Senate to go fetch and imprison some of these people. They should not be above the law.

Are you beginning to see why I'm getting disgusted with the Democrats? First they put Mukasey in office, knowing full well he would be another yes-man for Bush, just as Gonzalez was. Now, they are playing games, trying to gain political advantage by holding endless hearings which accomplish nothing. Rove and Meiers are still not showing up to testify. Congress has the authority, on its own, to arrest them but won't do it. They think they're gaining a political advantage by dragging things on.

But back to the main point. McCain severed all ties with Keating when he learned about the criminal investigation. This was BEFORE guilt had been determined in a court of law. If he had continued to socialize with him, continued to accept campaign contributions, etc., then I'd have a real problem with McCain. Senator Obama continued his association with Ayers AFTER he knew Ayers was guilty, since Ayers admitted it. He did more than "serve on a board," as falsely alleged. He served on at least two boards. He visited Ayers house with Alice Palmer.

McCain did not lie about his relationship with Keating so far as I know. Obama's campaign has lied about his relationship with Ayers. The lying makes me nervous, very nervous. Why lie?

Once again, I have to ask you to come clean here! Why does Obama's friendship with a Distinguished Professor of Education at the University of Illinois at Chicao make you nervous?
There's something seriously wrong with you. I mean it! This is crazy-azz stuff!
I can only hope that people have availed themselves of the links I've provided in my posts have reached their own conclusions.
This desperate grasping at straws isn't being missed by the smart people on this board, all of whom seem to be Progressive/Liberals. I seriously pity you for being unable to see only one side of any argument. You just don't have what it takes....
Sallie

Man, you are quite the lying sack of crap. I am "friendly" with some of the people I am on committees with. I speak with them, I'm nice to them. DOES NOT mean I am FRIENDS with them!

You see? Just spin it around! Lies is ALL you have.

And it's why you guys are going to lose BIG in a month. Count on it.

GoU

What are you talking about? America has not been invaded by a foreign power. This conversation is getting a tad hypothetical and imaginary, isn't it? Ayers was not blowing up foreign enemies. He was plotting to blow up buildings of his own government. You seem to confusing criminal actions with defending one's country against an invader.

I think Ayers learned something from his experiences. He is now "underground" in a mental way. He's a subversive but using ideas now instead of bombs.


You've trampled the flag? Then I would never be your friend. It is MY flag, no matter if others abuse it; and it's been abused by people on the right and on the left. It stands for ideals; and it remains the symbol of liberty to me, whether scoundrels on the right wrap themselves in it and call themselves patriots or whether radicals on the left trample on it or burn it. That's the first reason.

Believe what you like about me. If you think you're psychic and know everything, that's fine with me. That's the second reason I wouldn't want to be your friend. You think you know things when you don't.

Who am I, you ask, to impose my fears on others? Well then, who are you to trample on the flag to impose your ideas of what is patriotic on others? You appear to be rigid in your beliefs, inflexible, intolerant, so sure you're right about everything that you may never wonder if you're wrong at times and others might be right. Save me from such conviction. I consider that kind of conviction a type of mental illness. What if I were wrong? If I never doubted myself, I would never learn I was wrong.

And what good does it do to trample a flag? It's childish to me. The flag is a symbol. You're not hurting anyone by trampling it -- except getting some people riled up. So what good does it do to take such "symbolic" action? I prefer results in concrete reality, thank you, to results with symbols. That is the third reason I would not want to be your friend -- I don't like to have friends who live in their own mental worlds symbolically and put me at risk with their impracticality. Senator Obama can't even remember to put the butter away after making toast -- this is not someone I would trust to have around.

At least blowing up buildings is taking real action; but it seems Ayers has lost the courage to continue that. Trampling a symbol is nothing. When people take action against symbols, it tells me they lack the knowledge to produce real change. If you study Obama's record with Ayers at the Annenberg Challenge, you will discover that neither of them knew how to produce real change even when they had the money.
And Ayers is a "Professor of Education!" A lot he must know about education to get no real results!

boullan and the rest of the right have lost the debate on the war and the economy, and every other issue of the election, so all they have is smears and lies that have been debunked.

It won't work, boullan. It's over. You will lose.

GoU

I am surprised to see you resorting to insults. You say "LIES is ALL you have" but I note that you have not posted anything much except insults.

David Axelrod said this to Ben Smith:

"Bill Ayers lives in his neighborhood. Their kids attend the same school," he said. "They're certainly friendly, they know each other, as anyone whose kids go to school together."

See the word "friendly?" I didn't make it up. Axelrod said it. Never mind that Axelrod was LYING about their kids attending the same school. Ayers' children are grown up.

And Obama said this at the debate in Philadelphia:

"This is a guy who lives in my neighborhood, who's a professor of English in Chicago, who I know and who I have not received some official endorsement from. He's not somebody who I exchange ideas from on a regular basis.

"And the notion that somehow as a consequence of me knowing somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago when I was 8 years old, somehow reflects on me and my values, doesn't make much sense, George. [....]

"So this kind of game, in which anybody who I know, regardless of how flimsy the relationship is, is somehow -- somehow their ideas could be attributed to me -- I think the American people are smarter than that. They're not going to suggest somehow that that is reflective of my views, because it obviously isn't."

Well, Obama must not have known Ayers all that well, since he thought he was a "professor of English" when Ayers is really a professor of Education. It's mysterious to me how Obama could be confused about this since he collaborated with Ayers on the Annenberg Challenge which dealt with education. If he didn't know Ayers' "expertise" was in education, I wonder what they did talk about?

I have to wish Ayers had been a professor of English -- maybe he could have taught Obama to use better English: "exchange ideas from" is awkward English and "who I know" is incorrect grammar.

The "8 years old" comment was irrelevant. He was asked about his CURRENT relationship and chose to go off into this irrelevancy of how old he was when Ayers was building bombs.

Now notice that Obama WASTED time talking about "how flimsy the relationship is," etc. He NEVER answered the question. He dodged and tried to minimize the relationship. If he had answered truthfully, perhaps I'd find him credible. If he had said, "I've known him for years, ever since I entered politics. We've sat on boards together in areas we found common ground; but I don't endorse him or all his actions, that's for sure," that would have made sense.

Someone should tell Boul what a simile is, so he doesn't keep making absurd accusations out of ignorance.

I guess I will inform him again.



So when Axelrod says "as anyone whose kids go to school together" he is employing a mnemonic devise. That is taken to be a lie because the RW can't deal with issues.

Well, the poo has just hit the fan. Just heard that CNN reports that the Obama camp has decided to give mcsame a dose of his own medicine.

Beginning tomorrow there will be ads reminding all of America just what McCain and Charles Keating have in common. If mcsame wants to play "guilt by association", Obama just obliged him. Of course, the repugs will be screaming and whining like the stuck pigs (with or without lipstick) they are.

Once again, I ask you, Were You There? I know nothing about you, your age, your education, where you live, what you do for a living. I know so much more about others on this board. You just blow in here with your Anti-Obama nonsense and fail to take into consideration that there are many people on this board who don't agree with you and may even be better educated than you are.
Barack Obama forgets to "put away the butter?" OMG!!! That's got to be the crime of the century! I don't refrigerate the butter at all, I just knife-off what I need and leave it in it's little dish on the kitchen table. That must make me a terrorist, or verging on it.
You are so pathetic! Have you ever been a member of a committee that was for some change? There's much more involved than being a member and working toward change. Sometimes, you have to go up against the cold, hard reality of a system that vehemently opposes you.
Have you ever done this, boullan?
The more I read your posts, the more I see a shallow person who has glommed onto a political POV, without any real substantive reasons. Somebody told you that so-and-so did such-and-such and that's all you need to run off half-cocked.
And, BTW: "You've trampled the flag? Then I would never be your friend," remark just doesn't touch me where I live. I never asked you to be my friend and I couldn't care less!
The butter thing is just the prize. Sallie

Lies? I haven't said the things you are saying I said.

Obama spends most of his time in Washington. I would be very surprised if they were currently palling around.

I never said Ayers "is now involved in terrorist activity." I don't know why you are under the impression I did.

I have no desire to get all that personal on the internet. I didn't think I was running a "personals" ad by joining this site. I did tell you once I was born when Truman was President; that was another time when you tried to lecture me on how much more you knew because of your age. As for my education, it's Ivy League.

It annoys Michelle. It shows how forgetful and easily distracted he is.

I never felt so alienated by the world. A "system that vehemently" opposes me? I don't take the world that personally. Most people in the world have no clue I exist. Why would I think there was some system opposing me?

I don't want to be part of a "committee," thank you very much. Nor do I wish to be a "community organizer." What good has it done you unless you derive some pleasure out of tilting at windmills!

More mind-reading, I see. I doubt you grasp my posts. I never said, for example, that I was "involved" in any radical or not-so-radical political activity. I said I knew someone who had been.
It wasn't meant to be an insult. It was a statement of fact. You have never once said one thing which inclined me to think you would want me as a friend. At times, you've been, well, unpleasant. I was never under any illusion on that score. Why would you think I was trying to touch you where you live?

This thread is about Barack Obama, and I was making a point about him. Unlike Barack Obama who seems to have no standards for being "friends" with people, I do. If he wants to be "friendly" with someone who tramples the American flag, that's his business. I have other standards. I could not be friends with Ayers after seeing the photo of him trampling the flag. As for you, I don't know for sure you did. You could be trying to shock me. You could be telling stories to exaggerate your self-importance for all I know. Why would I become upset with you or try to touch you where you live? I don't know you. But I can take you at your word. If you say you trampled the flag, then all I can say is you couldn't be my friend unless you regretted it. That is part of my standards.

As for the butter? I leave mine out as well; but Michelle doesn't like it out and Barack forgets to put it away. I find that inconsiderate. I don't think it's asking a lot from him to put the butter away; but if she's willing to tolerate it, that's her affair. I can tell you, however, that if I lived with someone who thought it important to have the butter put away, I would put it away. It's not asking that much.

If he's really that forgetful, I wouldn't want him as President; and if he's that inconsiderate towards his own wife, I don't think he'd care too much about me.

Sarah Palin met and chatted with an indicted War Criminal

In fact, she made a BIG DEAL about it.

His name is Dr. Henry Kissinger.

He was indicted for War Crimes by the World Court for the part he played in the secret invasion of Cambodia.
Thousands of innocent people DIED.

Sarah Palin SHOULD HAVE KNOWN about Kissinger's history.

Sarah Palin "pals around" with a mass murderer.


Mac

Yeah! Henry Kissinger might be an international criminal, but does he leave the butter out? I'll bet that's why he was never elected president! (Never mind, I KNOW the real reason).
Sallie

Is there really a danger with quilts? My wife makes them and I have never had one attack me yet.

(just kidding ya as the subject line looks like quilt and not guilt. Of Course, I am blind and deaf, well almost.

Kissinger has never been convicted. Nor has he admitted guilt as Ayers did.

I'm sure if you asked her about her relationship with Dr. Kissinger -- a "respected" faculty member at Harvard and a Nobel Peace Prize winner, you wouldn't get the kind of deception we got from Obama when he tried to portray Ayers as "just some guy in the neighborhood."

I want to know why he's trying so hard to minimize things. Why hasn't he been honest about his relationship with Ayers? Why say he's "just some guy in the neighborhood" when there was more to it than that?

We probably all have known people we wish we hadn't. I do not assume that because Obama and Ayers are "friendly," that Obama approves of making bombs. I would have liked him to tell us all frankly the exact nature of the relationship without all this trying to cover things up. It smells bad. We already have a President who tries to squelch things and keep things secret. I don't want another one.

As I tried to explain in the intial post, you can become friends with people who have active warrants out, without your knowledge, and you can become friends with people who were accused of crimes and found not guilty, and people who were accused of crimes and never had charges brought against them.
Bill Ayers was, and is, a Distinguished Professor of Education at the University of Illinois at Chicago, when Barack Obama met him.
They both served on a committee, underwritten by the Annenberg Institute. In case you don't know about Walter Annenberg, I suggest you Google this guy who served in the Nixon administration. He served as Ambassador to the Court of St. James's, Great Britain, from 1969 to 1974. By the late 1980's, having sold all of his publishing and broadcast enterprises, Ambassador Annenberg devoted his attention to philanthropy and public service. (He also was responsible for Seventeen Magazine)
Hey! If a decidedly Republican foundation had cleared Ayers, why should you worry about Barack Obama's involvement?
Why not worry about the other members of the committee? Why not question the motives of Annenberg? Because to do so wouldn't serve your purpose. Only one member of that committee has the target on his chest: Barack Obama.
I really wish you'd grow up. I mean this in the kindest way. We all need to make adjustments throughout life. When do we stop believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and the Boogey Man? Obviously, when we learn to fend for ourselves and come to realize our own power to make, break, create.
Fear of the unknown, the strange, is not adult; it's childish. Where do you go when you feel this fear? God and guns? By the same token, why do so many of not share your fear? Why are we so unafraid?
This is something that has fascinated me for years. Some of the views I've read on this message board astound me, in that they expose a level of fear that I've never experienced.
I can't believe that I'm the only one....
Sallie

Ayers doesn't fall into either of those two categories. He was charged, but the charges were dropped because of illegal wiretaps. Now that may make him innocent in your book but it doesn't in mine, not after he said of himself, "“Guilty as hell, free as a bird—America is a great country."

And to your credit, you didn't try to dodge any questions about your relationship with Hoffman. You told it the way it was. I assume you have nothing to hide, that you told it all. It wasn't hard, was it?

Now, if only you could get Obama to be so frank. The way he goes about things gives the unpleasant impression he's hiding things.

Perhaps I should have told you more than I attended an Ivy League school. I attended the University of Pennsylvania, so I know who Annenberg is. I even worked at the Annenberg School of Communication.

I have to wonder, however, if Walter Annenberg would contributed that money had he known how it would be spent. The project produced no real results. Now with "Professor" Ayers's expertise in education, don't you find that amazing? If people -- outstanding citizens of Chicago -- are impressed by credentials, how do we explain the dismal results? I don't care what people say about Ayers -- in my opinion, he's a fraud as an educational expert since the project produced no real results. The prestigious diplomas don't mean a thing as we should know from all the CEOs we see now leading big corporations down in flames.


God and guns? You seem to share Obama's prejudices of people in small towns in Pennsylvania.

Why do you not have any "fears" of Obama? Perhaps you want to see the "system" that "opposes" you brought down? Perhaps you'd glory in chaos and destruction? That's the first idea that popped into my mind when you asked the question; and I wouldn't have ventured to give it had you not asked. I don't usually volunteer such personal remarks, but since you asked, I felt free. After all, you said you trampled the flag -- and that makes me wonder what other aggressive feelings you might have towards society.

Frankly, what I find more troubling than the association was his attempt to dodge explaining it. If he had nothing to hide, why try to dodge the question by saying Ayers was just some guy in his neighborhood? That was patently untrue. Clearly there was more to it than that. You may tell me how old you are; but I can claim to be old enough to know someone is a potential liability when he isn't upfront with you. If Obama had nothing to hide, he would have done better to explain his relationship at once instead of trying to dodge. I tend to think people are lying when I spot them dodging. Obama has a habit of dodging.

We saw him dodge Rezko and Wright by saying they're aren't the people he knew. What? He's that imperceptive? He can be around people for 20 years and still not know who they are? He dodged answering questions about them both; and when he finally got cornered, then he took refuge in this lame excuse that they weren't the people he knew!

We have seen enough dodging from Bush and his cronies. Mukasey was obviously another dodger -- but Feinstein and Schumer said he should be given a break. He got his break -- and now he's dodging the Congressional inquiry. I would NEVER have voted to confirm him. He was an obvious dodger. And now I should vote for Obama who is another dodger? Please.

I never believed in Santa Claus, by the way -- or the Easter Bunny. My Mother did not approve of telling her children things she knew to be lies.

But you still believe in the Boogey Man....

Considering how the McCain campaign tried to put the lid on the troopergate scandal, the very fact that you have ignored it shows that this statement is inoperative, and you are, at the very least, a massive hypocrite.

The most likely is that you are simply a keyboard kommando spinning out anything you can think of. It's certainly obvious you aren't debating honestly.

GoU

Not really. But maybe you could convince me he exists?

It's all going to come down to god and guns and the BSSM, with gays thrown in for good measure. How can they go wrong?
Sallie

Oh yes you do! He's the guy that doesn't believe in god and doesn't have an itch to solve all his problems by killing his enemy. He's probably not the same color as you are and might even come from another country. He might not have gone to an Ivy League college and gotten his BA and MBA from a state university, and he's your boss....
Sallie