Watch Fahrenheit 911 once more, and rethink your position.

I want Obama as our candidate, but please don't forget what is at stake.

I just re-watched the movie, and I think all progressives should too, if they can take it.


-P

This forum is dead, I guess.

I can't say I understand, but it might be time to divest it.

-P

Look! I will vote for Hillary Clinton if she turns out to be the Democratic nominee. I don't prefer her, but better Hillary than John McCain.
You feel the same way. And there's nothing so awful about that....
Sallie

I think that is an excellent idea. It has been a while since I've seen it. And I realized the other day that there are recorded events in that film that haven't hardly ever been mentioned anywhere. Such as Bush's inaugural parade forced to be cancelled. That has never before been done.

I've watched Farenheit 911 three times - and every time, I've seen something new and different. I have to admit that this is pretty much the case with every movie I've rented. Once is not enough. But. I think I'm gonna watch it again. What the hell? It's better than whatever's on at this hour. Infomercials that I pay $40 a month to see?
At the risk of derailing this thread, I just have to say that I watch 6 channels out of the 120 I pay for. Bbbrrrrr..... Or, Gggrrrrrr.... Or, Aaarrrrgggghhhh!
So, see you all tomorrow - or later today!
Love,
Sallie

Thanks, P. We all need to be reminded what our focus really is this year. Let's all unite for the common purpose of taking solid control of congress as well as the White House so we can begin to clean up after the disaster that we have witnessed over the last seven years.

while agreeing with you one believes it is more important, at this time, to push for obama. imo, hillary will be republican-lite. don't think we need more of that.

As I've said before, I will back Hillary 100% IF she wins the nomination FAIRLY. IOW, she comes into the convention having won the greater popular vote, AND the MI/FL primary issue is resolved fairly (either not counted or done-over), AND no dirty political tricks are used to defeat Obama. But if the DNC gives a second place Hillary the nomination using the Super-Delegates, OR if the DNC decides to use the UNfair FL and MI primaries as they stand, then I will NOT support their candidate. It's in THEIR hands. I hope they are listening...

i think watching this again would only go to remind me of the similarities between hillbag and bush...

You think, but maybe you are wrong. Try it.

I'd say you are 100 % wrong on that.

Please watch it again...

-P

I wouldn't worry too much about it. I truly think things will fall into place.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try and affect change in how our party puts forth a nominee. I just think it's well-understood that super-delegates not falling in with the earned delegates could destroy the party.

-P

Obviously we should all support the candidate of our choice in the primaries, but once the primaries are over we need to come together. In the meantime, we need to make sure that we don't fracture the party so badly that we end up with four years of McCain.

You and I both know that there are many differences between Hillary (I still wish you would knock of the "Hillbag" crap since this name has grown very oldl) and Bush.

If Hillary gets the nomination they are few things to watch for........

1. who does she pick as her running mate...If its not Obama, Dems/Liberal/Progressive values or whatever you want to name them are dead as Hillary is anything but Progressive.
2. Hillary won't win against McCain and that crying might help her to win some democrats, she can't cry her way to the Whitehouse.

The one scary thing that might happpen is if Barack Obama wins majority of the delegates but these so called Superdelicates end up choosing Hillary, that will be the end of Democratic party, well !! Sort of.....
People are going to loose their faith in the political system.

"The Hunting of the President"

as well.

But she needs to set things straight with regards to the Shuster thing, if she is truly
seeking to get him fired over a word & some implied criticism of her campaign.

Or she needs to go hunt Limberger & the rest of the right with the same energy.

Can we start a class action lawsuit about that? I'm sick and tired of turning on the tv at three in the morning and seeing nothing but infomercials. I'm getting tired of paying to watch commercials.

Seeing where Hilary gets her money.....hell no I wont vote for her. She is no better than any republican running. Though she does believe in evolution. (I think)

Boil it down to this. WHO would you rather pick the next Supreme Court Justice, Clinton or McCain?

Hillary is to centrist for my tastes (that's why my Primary vote went to a TRUE Democrat, Dennis Kucinich). Should Hillary get the nomination, I will gladly vote for her over ANY Republican.

I totally agree with you.I just don't think I can support someone who has to cheat to win. To me that is bush move. I will have lost faith in the political system. Chuck schumer was on meet the press yesterday and what he had to say really upset me. sounded like they were willing to do anything to get the delegates from mich. and flor. plus the super delegates.

What could posibly convince me to vote for Hillary Clinton?

Supreme Court nominations
Appointments to:
Her cabinet (especially Attorney General, Secs of State & Defense)
FEMA
EPA
EEOC

'Nuff said?


Mac

Hillary Rodham Clinton is single-handedly dividing the Democratic Party, even more......which is why I will never vote for her.....she doesn't represent what this Party stands for...and what she said last night about her experience and John McCain has experience, and all Obama has is a speech....that is not bringing the Party together......that is alienating and insulting the supporters of Sen. Obama....and as a supporter of Sen. Obama...I will work my butt off to see he is the nominee...and I will come to this board to be a sort of factchecker to the misleading rhetoric and cheapshots that Hillary Clinton has every intention of spitting..via those that support her and that sort of thing........I didn't know Hillary was really running to be John McCain's VP........she certainly isnt running to be the Democratic nominee...and her divisiveness is not helping the Democratic Party take back the White House...she may even be responsible for the Dems losing the Majority in Congress as she was back in 1994.....and I do not intend to be a party to that action..........I will vote for Cynthia McKinney of the Green Party, before I will ever vote for Hillary Rodham Clinton...what she has done is unforgivable~!!

But she's making this sooooo difficult lately, aleman! (Disloyal Democrat: Hillary chooses McCain over Obama)

You nailed it.

-P

I know. That is why we have our work cut out for us after the nominee has been chosen. We cannot afford to move forward coming out of the convention as a fragmented party. I shudder think what four years of a McCain presidency would look like!

one would probably vote for hillary should she win the nomination. her choice for a supreme court judge would most likely be centrist. beyond that, imo, she has never truly left her republican roots from her days as a goldwater girl. in addition, one is bothered that we have had 28 years of republican economics in the wh. enough of that.

What in "Fahrenheit 911" was supposed to sway me to support Hillary?

Do you still support Hillary today?

You completely missed the point. At the time I started this I felt Hillary still had a reasonable chance to win the nomination.

I've never supported Hillary, but in the hypothetical case that she won it, I would have gladly supported her in the general.

If McCain wins, we'll have at least four more years of what you see in F 911.

-P

Oh, ok, thank you. Jiminy, so it was a post to rally support against McHillary

I want someone more progressive. How do we communicate that to the democrats?

Hillary and Obama will screw up less than Bush. Thye are the lesser of two evils.
Sort of like Voting for Nyarlothetep instead of Cthulhu. Cthulhu is the greatest evil.

Compared to my position; even Dennis Kucinich is the middle of the road.
Sure Dennis wants socialized medical care.
Dennis realizes wages are lower than 1965.
In 1965 the minimum wage was $1.00 an hour.
that was four silver quarters. Today that much silver costs $20 in new paper dollars
When will the minimum wage hit $20 again?

I have not heard Dennis support ending the Federal Reserve Bank monopoly yet.
I am also for nationizing the electric monopolies, oil and coal comopanies
for both national security and economic security reasons.

So rock dude? What are you for? You can't just be against Hillary and get anyone to listen.




First, Robert Owen believed that no one was "responsible for his will and his own actions" because "his whole character is formed independently of himself." Owen firmly believed that people were the product of their environment, which fueled his support for education and labour reform. His views made Owen a pioneer in the promotion of investment in human capital.

No idea who McHillary is. No doubt McCain and Hillary are quite different.

Here in Michigan I keep thinking of some of my Democrat friends/family that voted for McCain for one reason or another rather than voting "uncommitted." I've never been taken with Clinton, I voted for Kucinnich in the primary. I also realize that to continue on in the cluster&$*! vein we've been stuck in will mean ruin. McCain seems to think that's just fine.

Pessimist that I am, I'm now wondering if it's Clinton vs. McCain whether the oft discussed independent/swing voters, including those who normally vote Democratic might float over to the McCain side ifwhen things get heated and the anti-Clinton rhetoric reaches a fever pitch. Both are perceived as centrists and some may buy "McCain's not Bush" or simply think (inexplicably) "Oh, there's no difference." That was me in '96 when I voted for Dole over Clinton, but things are a world different and I think McCain's chances are way better than Dole's if the ultraconservative jackals get behind him--and they will. Believe it. They may not like him but they believe in their vision and that belief is strong enough to supersede their misgivings about McCain.

So I guess in a roundabout way, I am saying that I will have to find a way to overcome my mistrust of Clinton if she secures the nomination. And I hope those fence-sitters, whoever they may be, are smarter than I think.

As I said previously in this thread, I will be voting for the Democratic nominee in November.
And I expect ALL Clinton and Obama supporters to do likewise.
As well as Edwards, Biden, Dodd, Gravel, and Kucinich supporters.
If you can't do that, then you should stop calling yourself a Democrat.


Mac

Well said.

I was a Kucinich guy first, then moved to Edwards, and am now at Obama. If I have to go one more step, I will...even if I have to hold my nose in doing so.

-P

Point the first: although I think Senator John McCain is a good man and a great American, I am sorry to say that I don't think he will LIVE until 2012. His health isn't what it used to be, and the man is almost 72.

Point the second: McCain may have sucked up to the extreme right-wingers, but he's ten times the man George W. Bush is. McCain certainly would have taken out bin Laden at Tora Bora, likely would not have invaded Iraq, and might even have prevented 9/11 in the first place. There's a competency gap here: although I dislike his politics, McCain is MUCH more qualified and sharper than our current dunce-in-chief. So even if the worst happens, and McCain wins, we're still better off than we are now. Just a small happy thought for y'all.

Point the third: there is a lot of bitterness right now within the Democratic party, but I think this will blow over by summertime. I'm an Obama supporter, and I (almost desperately) want my candidate to be on the ballot in November. If he is not, I will be disappointed. I will, however, hold my nose and vote for Senator Clinton, with the same lack of enthusiasm with which I voted for her husband.

Good to see you here again.

I question McCain's goodness and greatness now.

Foreswearing one's honour.. one's life long beliefs in the pursuit of power usually labels one as.. 'of questionable virtue..'

McCain has pandered himself with impunity..

Should that erase the goodness of his past deeds.. probably not.. but

it should erase every letter in the title ' A man of Integrity.. '

Would you have your headstone read:

Dr. Moribus - a good and honorable man.. (for the majority of his life)

..

No better than any Republican? Please tell me that's just frustration talking.
So you would rather vote for the absolute antithesis of yourself? Do you want someone you believe "you could have a beer with" instead?

Picking against your best interests is NeoCON. The kind of people they prefer, who will lose sight of the prize. If you don't get what you want as your first choice, you would pick the worst???? That's like a teenage girl exhibiting "cutting" behavior.

Jumping off the roof is a more direct way to hurt yourself.

Separate the tactics from the vote.
Hillary has every reason in the world to be nasty if she were the nominee. Not crazy about the battle against Obama, but it actually hasn't been as vicious as it could be.

She has been unfairly targeted by Republican - nEoCON smear campaigns for a decade & more. She has a lot of payback stored up for them. Go back to reread Brock's very telling "Blinded by the Right!" and watch "Hunting of the President."

She isn't my choice, but she's more than just the tactics.
If it came to pass that she was the nominee, I'd not be as happy as with Obama, but I would support her 120%. I'd watch her very, very closely, but not as distrustfully as a McCain.

Somebody recently wrote a book about the media "love affair" with McCain. The undeserved pass he gets.

We are responsible too.
Its because your opponent's cred is enhanced for every too hearty back pat you give them for finally "coming into the light" for one their meager moment.

One favorable vote & all is forgotten, no matter how badly they abused their charter, the Constitution & the ideals of the country in general.

We give the bad guys far more credit for their one favorable moment than they ever deserve.
And we beat up our own, treating them with harsher behavior than the guys ALWAYS against us & maybe even against the good of the country.

That's why distracting with "patriotism" noises are important.
It redirects the scrutiny & anger to a stand-in that is socially unassailable.

Dead on. McCain sold out big time - in the light of day and he STILL gets a pass?
Yet people bitch about Hillary, as though she is terrible?

And the Hillary people wet themselves over Obama?

What is in the water you drink?

If ["you"] people REALLY want to go down the tubes & hurt yourselves:
Hell, let's make Bush dictator for life and make it a shorter trip to hell.

McCain knows how to make nice with the media. It's as simple as that. Treat them nice, tell them what plays, what doesn't "make waves" and you send off some happy campers. Clinton makes good reading because there's such close contention and sparks and innuendo are flying.

As Groucho Marx once said, there is no sweeter sound than the crumbling of one's fellow man. It suits our infatuated media culture all too well.

For openers, I would hope my tombstone has my name spelled correctly!

Look, I am no fan of John McCain. I offer three reasons for the American voter to choose Obama or Clinton over McCain:

1. McCain never saw a war he didn't like. He's frankly dangerous; he may well start a war with Iran.
2. McCain is wrong, wrong, wrong on the economy. He doesn't know the difference between a real free market and the joke we have now. Under McCain, there's no reason to expect any improvement in the economy.
3. McCain is likely to nominate narrow-minded conservatives to the Supreme Court.

Having said this, I still maintain McCain would make a better President than George W. Bush, if for no other reason than he's smarter. He's a bona-fide war hero; you can't take that from him. He and his wife did adopt a Filipino baby (see: 2000 election, "brown baby") for no other reason than it was the humane thing to do. He's too hawkish, he panders shamelessly (not unusual for a politician), he's yet another conservative who puts ideology before the country... but he's still better than Bush. Bush has all the faults of McCain, and many many more.

Apologies for misspelling Morbius. I've probably done it 4 or 5 times without ever noticing.. most likely because I pronounce it incorrectly.. I guess I should also own up to still being ignorant of who the character, Dr. Morbius is.. even though I've read an explanation at least once..

Though my words may have seemed contrary, I agreed with your first post as much as this one. . the opportunity of voicing my disdain for McCain is something I'm loathe to let pass.

..

I forgive you. I'm at the library so links don't work properly. Cut and paste the next line and read about my namesake, if you like.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Planet

Oh, one more reason not to vote for Mr. McCain: it's a further setback for labor.