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Bird
After reading the Nation's article entitled "Too Late for Empire" I have come to the conclusion that the US has been made almost as Irrelevant as the adminsitration felt about the UN prior to Iraq. Condi runs around the Mideast spouting drivel, Rumsfeld days that he wasn't overly optimistic about Iraq, Britain supposedly foils a major terrorist plot that tha administration knew about several days ago. It seems that we cannot act in any manner that involves real diplomacy and God forbid, compromise. All we can do is spout crap about winning the war on terror when you can't win a war on an emotional response to an action which is what terror is. We have sewn dragon's teeth all around us and the American Nazi excuse me, Republicans have no clue what to do. I'm not certain that the democrats do either.

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jlee562
During the Cuban missile crisis, Dean Achenson (frmr. Sec. State) went to France to build up support in the Security Council. While meeting with Charles Degualle, he told him about the missile silos and asked Degalle if he wanted to see the aerial photos they had at the site, and Deguall said "A great country such as yours does not act without evidence. You may tell your President that France will support him".

That's what we used to be.

Now, we are a nation which nobody trusts and which many despise.
aleman
QUOTE(Jeff Croll @ Aug 11 2006, 04:20 PM) *

After reading the Nation's article entitled "Too Late for Empire" I have come to the conclusion that the US has been made almost as Irrelevant as the adminsitration felt about the UN prior to Iraq. Condi runs around the Mideast spouting drivel, Rumsfeld days that he wasn't overly optimistic about Iraq, Britain supposedly foils a major terrorist plot that tha administration knew about several days ago. It seems that we cannot act in any manner that involves real diplomacy and God forbid, compromise. All we can do is spout crap about winning the war on terror when you can't win a war on an emotional response to an action which is what terror is. We have sewn dragon's teeth all around us and the American Nazi excuse me, Republicans have no clue what to do. I'm not certain that the democrats do either.

sad.gif

How can the world think any differently of us when our leader and his appointed shills constantly contradict themselves and deny having made statements that exist on tape and have been heard by millions? Several rightie talkers have now started to state that the US was intimately involved in the investigations leading up to the arrests in Britain the other day, even though the administration was only briefed a few days before the arrests were made. This will be one of the most difficult of the Bush legacies to overcome as we move forward, after the Dems retake control and the people once again have a voice. Hopefully, the rest of the world is intelligent enough to understand that America made a mistake in electing this goofball as our leader and will be able to move on after he and his crew are dragged offstage.
califlefty
I think you need to step back and look at the "big" picture"...America is an empire in the classical sense, and will continue to be so. Lets define "empire" A nation taxes its own citizens, while an empire taxes other nations. This ability to tax relies on your economy or military.

We bacame an empire on the following date: August 15,1971 when the US defaulted (we went bankrupt) and refused to back dollars with gold to our trading partners. We basically said you send us goods and we will send our paper, ok? Look around your house, see all the stuff made abroad? The world has been powerless to respond and thus we declared ourselves an empire. So what backs the dollar if not gold? Oil.

The US is far from irrelevant. You'll know when we are when you need wheelbarrels to carry your dollars to the baker for a loaf of bread.
Dr Morbius
In the first place, I challenge the assertion that the U.N. is irrelevant. The U.N. was created by FDR to allow nations to resolve disputes verbally, to prevent destructive conflicts between global superpowers. To the extent that the only destructive conflict between superpowers since then was in Korea (really before China became our equal militarily), it has been successful. Also, the UN was created as a tool to allow the USA to prevent empires from developing and challenging our might. As such, it has only worked when our President has been wise enough to use it well. The U.N. isn't intrinsically irrelevant; the fact that our chief executive knows not how to use it wisely renders it irrelevant at the time being.

Also, I don't think America is irrelevant. This is a blip, a dark shadowy period in global history. The Democratic party will gain seats in November; everyone knows this and GOP election experts are trying mightily to retain control. That means America's government will change next year. I'll explain: leadership changes are coming next year, no matter who wins.

In 1998, the Republican party was certain it would gain seats, perhaps as many as 10. Mr. Clinton was embroiled in controversy, and the right was on the attack. But they overreached, and the Democratic turnout was stunning, and the net result was that the GOP lost 5 seats in the House. They retained control, but by a slimmer margin than before. That's when they ousted Newt Gingrich from the Speakership, and inserted the wrasslin' coach, Denny Hastert of Illinois. Since they will lose many seats in 2006, you can expect Hastert to be replaced as Speaker, too. Besides that, Frist will be gone at the end of this year so there has to be a different Senate majority leader.

Given that the war in Iraq has grown quite unpopular, and the President's poll numbers are awful, you can expect some serious differences in the Republican party. A focus on cutting spending, on being more fiscally responsible, a lot more get-it-done and a lot less bluster-and-posture. All this, I foresee, if the Democrats fail to gain either house. However, the GOP leadership and braintrust thinks they are going to retain control because they think the Democrats have one and only one issue: the failed occupation of Iraq. They are quite mistaken, and this characteristic hubris will prove their undoing.

There remains the possibility that the GOP will cheat on this election, but we (the Democrats, that is) are watching them carefully. If they cheat, we will catch them. Whether the powers-that-be like it or not, the people are coming for their country, and we will not be denied. To assume otherwise underestimates the American people, a foolish and oft-fatal move.

We live in a once-great country that will be great again. Have some hope.
Bird
QUOTE(Dr Morbius @ Aug 22 2006, 09:42 PM) *

In the first place, I challenge the assertion that the U.N. is irrelevant. The U.N. was created by FDR to allow nations to resolve disputes verbally, to prevent destructive conflicts between global superpowers. To the extent that the only destructive conflict between superpowers since then was in Korea (really before China became our equal militarily), it has been successful. Also, the UN was created as a tool to allow the USA to prevent empires from developing and challenging our might. As such, it has only worked when our President has been wise enough to use it well. The U.N. isn't intrinsically irrelevant; the fact that our chief executive knows not how to use it wisely renders it irrelevant at the time being.

Also, I don't think America is irrelevant. This is a blip, a dark shadowy period in global history. The Democratic party will gain seats in November; everyone knows this and GOP election experts are trying mightily to retain control. That means America's government will change next year. I'll explain: leadership changes are coming next year, no matter who wins.

In 1998, the Republican party was certain it would gain seats, perhaps as many as 10. Mr. Clinton was embroiled in controversy, and the right was on the attack. But they overreached, and the Democratic turnout was stunning, and the net result was that the GOP lost 5 seats in the House. They retained control, but by a slimmer margin than before. That's when they ousted Newt Gingrich from the Speakership, and inserted the wrasslin' coach, Denny Hastert of Illinois. Since they will lose many seats in 2006, you can expect Hastert to be replaced as Speaker, too. Besides that, Frist will be gone at the end of this year so there has to be a different Senate majority leader.

Given that the war in Iraq has grown quite unpopular, and the President's poll numbers are awful, you can expect some serious differences in the Republican party. A focus on cutting spending, on being more fiscally responsible, a lot more get-it-done and a lot less bluster-and-posture. All this, I foresee, if the Democrats fail to gain either house. However, the GOP leadership and braintrust thinks they are going to retain control because they think the Democrats have one and only one issue: the failed occupation of Iraq. They are quite mistaken, and this characteristic hubris will prove their undoing.

There remains the possibility that the GOP will cheat on this election, but we (the Democrats, that is) are watching them carefully. If they cheat, we will catch them. Whether the powers-that-be like it or not, the people are coming for their country, and we will not be denied. To assume otherwise underestimates the American people, a foolish and oft-fatal move.

We live in a once-great country that will be great again. Have some hope.

Well Doctor, it all started when I was a child...

Seriously, I do have hope. I believe that the UN is not irrelevant and that we can be great again and not just a great military power. As a nation we must guard against thinking we can control others just because of techological military might. If nothing, Iraq has proven that poor planning causes catastrophic results. The same thing applies to New Orleans and the rest of the areas devastated by Katrina. What is needed are people who can think beyond profit and beyond how does this benefit me or my group only. It is too easy to think about the US alone and restoring ourselves without restoring or building up the rest of the world. This means that we as a nation have to do two thinks at once which may be difficult for many politicians and many ordinary people. We must think short term AND long term.

I am not sure who those politicians are that can think that way but I do not believe it is any of the current administration. Colin Powell may have been able to but he was emasculated.
Dr Morbius
QUOTE(Jeff Croll @ Aug 24 2006, 08:40 AM) *

Well Doctor, it all started when I was a child...

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Tell me more about your Mother.
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Seriously, I believe that taking an active role - whether that means joining a campaign, blogging, volunteering, going to local meetings of your school board or village council, or whatever - helps one to believe we can do this, we can make America again worthy of the Lord's blessing.

You know that Neil Young song, Looking for a Leader? Good tune, very apt, but the thing we really need to do is start leading ourselves. Smart politicians will then get in front of us and claim ownership of the movement! biggrin.gif

Jeff, I believe you "get it", and I believe we're going to be all right. The night has been dark but the dawn nears.
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