What the Hell is a JOBLESS RECOVERY?, a Jobless Recovery is Double-Speak! Options

[ShroomDuke]

A "Jobless Recovery" is bull****!

This is saying that the unemployed will no longer count! That America is ONLY concerned with the Rich and Powerful.

They have their money, their Wealth, their Power, Healthcare, Offshore Tax Shelters, Swiss Bank Accounts, they have all the Loopholes they need to keep from paying taxes! They have everything they need and they don't give a DAMN about the rest of America and they DO NOT want to Share the wealth!

This means Policy of America is to BETRAY THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and Encourage the CORPORATE MONOPOLIES & CARTELS OF the Predatory Health Insurance industry, Fraudulent Banking, Corrupt Politicans, Endless Wall Street Ponzi Schemes, and to turn a BLIND EYE to the Suffering and Death of America's good Citizens!

When they say JOBLESS RECOVERY they are saying that America will Continue to be a bloodthirsty Kleptocracy where the weak are ground into the cobblestones under the wheels of PREDATORY CAPITALISM!

Without National Healthcare Reform with a NonProfit Base for BASIC HEALTH CARE and some kind of PROTECTION OF AMERICAN JOBS, America will continue to Deteriorate into god knows what. Stop the flood of cheap labor, Enforce our immigration laws, put the Corporate CEOs in Jail, Stabilize the economy with REAL JOBS, STOP the borrowing, Stop the foreign Occupations, stop the Political Corruption of Multinational Corporate Money!

What will America's wealth be based on?
What will Americans do besides shuffle papers and flip burgers?


"JOBLESS RECOVERY" IS AN OXYMORON!

[DonShafer]

The Bushyt Department of Labor tried to reclassify hamburger flippers as Manufacturing positions.

U.S. House bans fast-food jobs from being counted as manufacturing jobs

WASHINGTON (AP) - The U.S. House decided Wednesday to make sure workers serving up French fries and hamburgers aren't classified as part of the nation's manufacturing sector.


Lawmakers approved the measure after Democrats criticized President Bush's economic report for questioning whether fast-food restaurants should be reclassified from the service sector to manufacturing since they could be viewed as "combining inputs to manufacture a product.''
http://www.oweb.com/state/story/09162004_sta07.asp

[tritumi]

ShroomDuke, you are absolutely correct. may we review?

three policies are enshrined: 1. rule by and for maximized profitability, 2. cheap credit for finance, and 3. labor arbitrage

these policies work to maximize efficiency, productivity, and cost reductions

the results are high profits, high debt loads, globalization of american interests

the dynamics increase disparity of wealth distribution, corruption of political process by that wealth distribution, enslavement to debt, creation of artificial financial products to monetize high debt loads, more technology in production, outsourcing of jobs, insourcing of jobs through illegal immigration.

the system breaks down when the insurance used to protect against the risks inherent in the artificial financial products crosses the line of no return relative to the breakdown of debt service by those enslaved who have been downsized, outsourced, or displaced by illegal immigration.

gov't, having been completely corrupted, rode the gravy train of false, debt-based expansion, and expects that growth to continue for its own benefit and the benefit of its primary constituents, contributors to political campaigns and gov't workers.

the so-called current recovery is nothing of the sort because it is dependent on the 'money' pushed into the channels owned by campaign contributors and gov't workers and is not based on real productive labor. productivity increases, which are occurring, are the results of more technology and more outsourcing and downsizing - all factors that hurt employment.

employment will not and can not return to growth stages in productive jobs until such time as the primary causes of the initial value system are
restored to historic balance and the inflation that is now cancerous bad debt is drained from the system by default, bankruptcy, or repayment.

i hope this primer helps. this analysis is what earns me the title of a doom and gloom poster. i hope that, on reflection, you will see these notes as an objective consideration of the true situation and not be sucked into the partisan and irrational arguments that are the main activity on the site.

This post has been edited by tritumi: Nov 6 2009, 04:43 PM

[Jailbush]

What will America's wealth be based on?

I'm going with 'thin air'

It all depends on the outcome of these neocon crusades. Whatever is left after the war smoke clears is what America's wealth will be based on. In the meantime, my guess is that the U.S. will build bigger military industrial complexes until there's no more money left. It's whatever the Bilderberg Group has their sights set on with their global order.

[ShroomDuke]

ShroomDuke, you are absolutely correct. may we review?

three policies are enshrined: 1. rule by and for maximized profitability, 2. cheap credit for finance, and 3. labor arbitrage

i hope this primer helps. this analysis is what earns me the title of a doom and gloom poster. i hope that, on reflection, you will see these notes as an objective consideration of the true situation and not be sucked into the partisan and irrational arguments that are the main activity on the site.

1. rule by and for maximized profitability, 2. cheap credit for finance, and 3. labor arbitrage

Very interesting, I don't think i've heard anyone talk about "Labor Arbitrage" lately, there are lots of things I haven't heard anyone talk about.

How about Debt Forgiveness and Debt Cancellation...

The system is out of blance because of greed, corruption, Corporate Welfare, Selective Enforcement, NonCompliance, no Oversight, no Accountability, and just plain Bad faith!

There is plenty of room for greed but this **** has gotten out of hand!

People need to see the F###ing doom and gloom or they will continue to be rats in a maze untill they are taken out to be fed to the snakes!

[tritumi]

1. rule by and for maximized profitability, 2. cheap credit for finance, and 3. labor arbitrage

Very interesting, I don't think i've heard anyone talk about "Labor Arbitrage" lately, there are lots of things I haven't heard anyone talk about.

thanks. i try

How about Debt Forgiveness and Debt Cancellation...

could work, please check if any of the following apply

1. you are too big to fail

2. you are a known campaign contributor

3. you are a foreign entity with access to strategic resources

4. your business card says goldman sachs

(there are three pages of posts by me mentioning labor arbitrage.)

i am the only person to have placed the term in discussion, it appears. economics as reality is less interesting for entertainment purposes than chasing a greased pig here.

[adam32492]

Could it be the jobless recovery means businesses are doing better but not hiring back their laid off
workers and settling to do more with less people?

[cqsallie]

Could it be the jobless recovery means businesses are doing better but not hiring back their laid off
workers and settling to do more with less people?

Oh! No! Someone with a grain of sense on this thread?
I think you're absolutely correct, adam! And if people would haul their eyes off their pontififations, they might agree as well....
Sallie

[BluesOutback]

Oh! No! Someone with a grain of sense on this thread?
I think you're absolutely correct, adam! And if people would haul their eyes off their pontififations, they might agree as well....
Sallie

Fewer serfs doing more.

It would be the expected business model, since it maximizes profits & nothing has changed enough
to guarantee that it will not balloon again - in precisely the same way.

The apologists for corporations will see to that.
The rest just go on a shooting spree? Or what?

This post has been edited by BluesOutback: Nov 7 2009, 06:12 AM

[tritumi]

Could it be the jobless recovery means businesses are doing better but not hiring back their laid off
workers and settling to do more with less people?

as usual there are arguments with two impulses prevailing.

one case is as you suggest, increased productivity from automation and robotics.

the other impulse holds that structural change in how the labor market performs occurs fundamentally.

both are no doubt right, at various time, in varying degrees, in various industries.

since the us is so finance led now, a recovery can be defined by the money guys getting their investments positive. and that does not have to be related to activity in the us market at all!

[whataboutbob]

Oh! No! Someone with a grain of sense on this thread?
I think you're absolutely correct, adam! And if people would haul their eyes off their pontififations, they might agree as well....
Sallie

I agree with you and adam.

businesses haven't seen need or reasons to add back workers.

businesses have seen more taxes coming from both HC reform and cap & trade that are not conducive to growth but rather contraction.

all of this means less commerce, less demand for services and you get economic stagnation.

we needed the stimulus to make people, workers and businesses more confident that things were going to improve, it didn't happen.

This post has been edited by whataboutbob: Nov 7 2009, 08:54 AM

[Dr Morbius]

1. Until a need for jobs begins, any recovery is recovery in name only. Wealth comes from productivity (or using up a resource), so real wealth generation cannot occur until a greater number of the people are working and thus being productive. So the term "jobless recovery" is, as others have stated, an oxymoron.

2. Businesses can and do exist on many levels; there's the "getting by" level, where a skeleton staff can handle the quantity of service provided (or materials produced), but profits are low; there's the "doing okay" level, where profits are being generated with a slim or skeleton staff, to the point where businesses consider hiring new employees, and perhaps sometimes do so; there's the "thriving" level where businesses are definitely planning to hire new people, when they get some time to think about it; and there's the "insane" level, where businesses need to hire and they need to do it yesterday. Our country's businesses are mostly in the first two levels. Few corporations or small businesses are thriving or insanely busy. Some are, to be sure, but most companies are either doing okay or getting by; overall, the recovery is not at a point where companies are ready to hire new people. It is also not at a point were no companies are thriving.

3. The economy was given a shot in the arm with the recovery and reinvestment act of 2009, and it appears to have helped. To extend the metaphor, it appears that the patient (the economy) needs a great deal more than a simple booster shot. The economy needs a lifestyle change. A different diet, limited in Chinese labor and involving more of the sturdy vegetables of manufacturing; outsourcing is the fried food of our economy and Wall street derivatives, the high-fructose corn syrup. Another shot in the arm won't fix much; that's my diagnosis for what it's worth.

4. I got nothing else, except perhaps to note that gloomy analysis does not make one a doom and gloom poster; it is rather the Marxist insistence on the inevitability of disaster which makes for a label of "gloomy gus".

[whataboutbob]

1. Until a need for jobs begins, any recovery is recovery in name only. Wealth comes from productivity (or using up a resource), so real wealth generation cannot occur until a greater number of the people are working and thus being productive. So the term "jobless recovery" is, as others have stated, an oxymoron.

2. Businesses can and do exist on many levels; there's the "getting by" level, where a skeleton staff can handle the quantity of service provided (or materials produced), but profits are low; there's the "doing okay" level, where profits are being generated with a slim or skeleton staff, to the point where businesses consider hiring new employees, and perhaps sometimes do so; there's the "thriving" level where businesses are definitely planning to hire new people, when they get some time to think about it; and there's the "insane" level, where businesses need to hire and they need to do it yesterday. Our country's businesses are mostly in the first two levels. Few corporations or small businesses are thriving or insanely busy. Some are, to be sure, but most companies are either doing okay or getting by; overall, the recovery is not at a point where companies are ready to hire new people. It is also not at a point were no companies are thriving.

3. The economy was given a shot in the arm with the recovery and reinvestment act of 2009, and it appears to have helped. To extend the metaphor, it appears that the patient (the economy) needs a great deal more than a simple booster shot. The economy needs a lifestyle change. A different diet, limited in Chinese labor and involving more of the sturdy vegetables of manufacturing; outsourcing is the fried food of our economy and Wall street derivatives, the high-fructose corn syrup. Another shot in the arm won't fix much; that's my diagnosis for what it's worth.

4. I got nothing else, except perhaps to note that gloomy analysis does not make one a doom and gloom poster; it is rather the Marxist insistence on the inevitability of disaster which makes for a label of "gloomy gus".

I think your analysis is spot on but I just don't think the stimulus was much of a factor, not worth the $1T in debt that it will cost.

But I agree with the rest.

Very well stated.

[Dr Morbius]

I think your analysis is spot on but I just don't think the stimulus was much of a factor, not worth the $1T in debt that it will cost.

But I agree with the rest.

Very well stated.

Thank you. To further extend the metaphor (is there an inherent elasticity to metaphor? or is that metaphoric?), it depends on how badly the patient was doing at the time of the shot. As I recall, the patient was doing very poorly indeed at the time, and it may be that the current "recovery" is entirely due to that booster shot. I hope that's not the case, for it bodes ill, but whether it is the case or not, it's pretty clear that without that shot, the economy might well be even worse.

It's way too early to tell. A great chunk of that stimulus bill is as yet unspent. If the economy does improve, the government will get more income, because the government taxes on the basis of income. Which in turn may mean the additional revenue will offset the additional spending in the end. Unless the economy improves to the point of consistent growth and an increase in job demand, the government will not incur additional revenue and this will indeed turn out to be a trillion in debt. My point here is that only if it fails will this economic investment turn into debt for the government.

[ShroomDuke]

thanks. i try


could work, please check if any of the following apply

1. you are too big to fail

2. you are a known campaign contributor

3. you are a foreign entity with access to strategic resources

4. your business card says goldman sachs

(there are three pages of posts by me mentioning labor arbitrage.)

i am the only person to have placed the term in discussion, it appears. economics as reality is less interesting for entertainment purposes than chasing a greased pig here.

This is what scares the hell out of me, Americans seem more interested in chasing a greased pig than taking care of business.

I don't think any of this is black and white or just simple laziness or apathy, we are all Brainwashed, Programmed Nightly by the Corporate Mind Control network we call "Media", the more I pay attention the more I notice the mental manipulation. After reading George Lakoff, David Brock, and others I have a different view of things and I notice the contradictions, framing, exclusions etc.

The thing I have come to realize is this is NO MISTAKE! It doesn't even seem to occur to people that there are forces engeneering their lives in ways they never imagined and if they don't take notice and push back America will be a Dickensian nightmare!

I recomend a book Titled "We, The People" by Leo Huberman written in 1932, it is very enlightening!
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/We-the-Pe...e/9780853451341

[tritumi]

ShroomDuke, we are in agreement. we have passed through the century of the self. this has been a period in which the elite in western nations, led by the immensely energetic and innovative people of america, came to some simple realizations

1. the frustration of rising expectations lead to the displacement of an elite and replacement by a new elite.

evidence = the bolshevik revolution and on-going communist subversion

2. policy can avoid and resolve that frustration while making the elite even stronger. "By controlling peoples' innermost desires, one makes them happy, and thus docile."

3. that policy can be summarized as "the consumer economy" (remember, until the 20th century there was no mass economy, no widespread access to goods and services, little mobility.)

4. consumer economies require large pools of credit, otherwise known as debt, and the primary debt instrument is that which is commonly known as "money" (but that is not what money is, but don't tell the people, that is part of the trick)

5. consumer economies require that people be trained to associate their deepest psychological desires with products. advertising and public relations industries are born in the outgrowth of world war one propaganda expertise.

6. consumer economies require never ending growth to feed the debt service requirements of #4.

if you have never seen a 4 part bbc documentary entitled The Century of the Self, i suspect you will find it an aid. it is free on the google video link.

you are right to be scared by the irrational power of mobs as well as the murderous intent of elites.

This post has been edited by tritumi: Nov 7 2009, 03:44 PM

[tritumi]

i'll combine your two notes, if i may, snipping for concision.

most companies are either doing okay or getting by; overall.

3. The economy was given a shot in the arm with the recovery and reinvestment act of 2009, and it appears to have helped. To extend the metaphor, it appears that the patient (the economy) needs a great deal more than a simple booster shot. The economy needs a lifestyle change. A different diet, limited in Chinese labor and involving more of the sturdy vegetables of manufacturing; outsourcing is the fried food of our economy and Wall street derivatives, the high-fructose corn syrup. Another shot in the arm won't fix much; that's my diagnosis for what it's worth.

4. I got nothing else, except perhaps to note that gloomy analysis does not make one a doom and gloom poster; it is rather the Marxist insistence on the inevitability of disaster which makes for a label of "gloomy gus".
====

the patient was doing very poorly indeed at the time, and it may be that the current "recovery" is entirely due to that booster shot. I hope that's not the case, for it bodes ill, but whether it is the case or not, it's pretty clear that without that shot, the economy might well be even worse.

It's way too early to tell. A great chunk of that stimulus bill is as yet unspent. If the economy does improve, the government will get more income, because the government taxes on the basis of income. Which in turn may mean the additional revenue will offset the additional spending in the end. Unless the economy improves to the point of consistent growth and an increase in job demand, the government will not incur additional revenue and this will indeed turn out to be a trillion in debt. My point here is that only if it fails will this economic investment turn into debt for the government.

to take you last point first: only if it fails will this economic investment turn into debt for the government question: is it not already debt?

a significant amount went into banks with the purpose of freeing credit. instead banks have tightened credit and significantly increased costs of revolving consumer credit (credit cards). why is that?

when the american gov't borrows to allow the stimulus and other spending and increases the debt ceiling while dramatically projected even greater debt, where does this money come from? how does this balance with your call to limit exposure to china?

and your first point, most companies are either doing okay or getting by; overall. while not necessarily disagreeing, i am curious for your basis in fact for this statement. my concern is that 70% of the economy is consumer driven and federal reserve's 11/6 Z1 report, Consumer Credit is, as summarized here Consumer Credit: Awful.

consumer debt is dropping at a 7.2% annual rate.

cheers.

This post has been edited by tritumi: Nov 7 2009, 05:02 PM

[Bird]

tritumi mentions labor arbitrage and consumerism.

indeed these are two very important issues.

however, there also other things at play, imo.

tritumi discusses one which is the lack a "mass" economy prior to the twentieth century. this is critical. another critical point is speed of communication and transportation which allowed for the growth of consumerism along with the implementation of debt as money also known as credit. of tangential but important interest is that the fed, iirc, abandoned publishing m3 which includes credit, again iirc. but communication via telephone, television and the interenet allowed for something much greater to happen:

information control.

while some may argue that this is wrong due toi the mountains of information available via the internet what actually happened is debate-framing, massive agitprop, (to borrow from semantic monitor) symbol manipulation etc.

as a perfect example we have the following:

america "won" the cold war. what, exactly, does this mean? the defeat of communism? possibly but let's look deeper. what took its place in the ussr and china? oligarchy, a longing for stalinistic leaders in russia and state controlled nationalistic mercantilism in china. there has not been the creation of 1.5 billion new capitalists but rather the creation of a small group of capitalists who feed upon wage destruction. yet we see writers and pundits such as thomas friedman making ridiculous statements about china and so on. the same applies to the politcial pundits regarding dem vs rep. they trumpet a cacophony of blather for the express purpose of clarification all while hiding the underlying purpose of obfuscation, opaqueness, complexity and fraud.

we know what one of the main problems is but the question then becomes do we wish to alter this information circus.

imo, the answer is no. the public prefers to cling to notions of simplistic emotional thinking. manichean worldview trumps all. good vs evil, us vs them, with little to know thought of the impact.

an excellent example of this is the oil debate.

many rant about not being allowed to drill in anwr as though that would impact our use of oil and even imported oil in any manner other than small. they seem to have access to information but choose not to use it as this would affect their simplistic worldview.

so what is the upshot of all of this?

a massive paradigm shift regarding our description of economic growth is required. a massive shift in the manner in which we obtain energy sources is required. a massive shift in the manner in which the public is treated by the private sector and the government as well is required.

until one true pathogen is removed we will not see any alteration of significant size on the path we travel. that pathogen is exceptionalism.

we must either change, which is not the same as simply rolling up our sleeves as americans can do anything, or we will collapse.

not to worry, though, the rest of the world will be close behind.

[Jo Mac]

A "Jobless Recovery" is bull****!

This is saying that the unemployed will no longer count! That America is ONLY concerned with the Rich and Powerful.

They have their money, their Wealth, their Power, Healthcare, Offshore Tax Shelters, Swiss Bank Accounts, they have all the Loopholes they need to keep from paying taxes! They have everything they need and they don't give a DAMN about the rest of America and they DO NOT want to Share the wealth!

This means Policy of America is to BETRAY THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and Encourage the CORPORATE MONOPOLIES & CARTELS OF the Predatory Health Insurance industry, Fraudulent Banking, Corrupt Politicans, Endless Wall Street Ponzi Schemes, and to turn a BLIND EYE to the Suffering and Death of America's good Citizens!

When they say JOBLESS RECOVERY they are saying that America will Continue to be a bloodthirsty Kleptocracy where the weak are ground into the cobblestones under the wheels of PREDATORY CAPITALISM!

Without National Healthcare Reform with a NonProfit Base for BASIC HEALTH CARE and some kind of PROTECTION OF AMERICAN JOBS, America will continue to Deteriorate into god knows what. Stop the flood of cheap labor, Enforce our immigration laws, put the Corporate CEOs in Jail, Stabilize the economy with REAL JOBS, STOP the borrowing, Stop the foreign Occupations, stop the Political Corruption of Multinational Corporate Money!

What will America's wealth be based on?
What will Americans do besides shuffle papers and flip burgers?


"JOBLESS RECOVERY" IS AN OXYMORON!

Today from the Boston Globe, inaccurate numbers being reported.

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/20...d_review_finds/

[aleman]

Since jobless numbers are a trailing economic indicator, we will not know whether this is a "jobless recovery" or not for quite some time to come since there are only a few "green shoots" of economic growth at this time.