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> A Short History of Conservative Obstruction to Progress
gounion
post Sep 3 2006, 06:45 AM
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Received this via email. It says it perfectly. Conservatism unmasked:

Cheap-labor conservatives have gotten into the habit of wrapping themselves in the flag, quoting Jefferson, and holding themselves out as defenders of “American values”. In fact, from the very beginning, cheap-labor forces have opposed and obstructed realization of Jefferson’s dream of equality, democracy and social justice. Here is a short list of examples of cheap-labor conservatives obstructing of those values.

The cheap-labor conservatives:

1. Supported George III in the American Revolution. Fully a third of the population of the colonies didn’t even want independence.

2. Supported protection for the institution of slavery in the Constitutional convention. This included the bizarre insistence that slaves be counted in determining slave state representation in Congress. Slaves were people according to conservative planters, but only for purposes of counting them. Those same interests also prevented regulation of the importation of slaves prior to 1808.

3. Opposed tariffs to protect American manufacturing. Reactionary southern planters failed to grasp the need to develop our own industrial base. They preferred to operate a slave labor driven cash crop economy for the simple reason that they – the wealthy planters that is – profited from economic underdevelopment.

4. Supported “nullification”, which said that states didn’t have to enforce federal laws they didn’t like. This “theory”, such as it was, was in direct contradiction to the provision of the US Constitution that made federal law “the supreme law of the land”.

5. Supported repeal of the Missouri Compromise so as to allow slavery in places like Nebraska and the deserts of New Mexico.

6. Opposed the transcontinental railroad, because it might encourage small farmers who owned no slaves to settle in western territories. Contemporary conservative pundit, Joseph Sobran has dressed up opposition to this as a “principled” stand against “big government” proponents like Henry Clay and Abraham Lincoln.

7. Opposed the Homestead Act for the same reason.

8. Opposed freedom of speech for Southern opponents of slavery. It seems the institution of slavery became so sacred, the conservative southern planters made it a crime to speak out against it. Before the 14th amendment, freedom of speech was not required of the states.

9. Declared – contrary to Jefferson’s dictum that “all men are created equal” – that “the black man has no rights the white man is bound to respect”. This was the holding of Dred Scott v. Sandford, perhaps the single worst opinion in the history of the US Supreme Court.

10. Supported destruction of the union rather than allow Congress to so much as restrict slavery to places where it already existed.

11. Opposed the earliest civil rights legislation to enforce the 14th and 15th amendments.

12. Obstructed, intimidated and harassed newly freed slaves who attempted to exercise their Federal civil rights, including the right to vote.

13. Opposed preserving the union. Northern cheap-labor conservatives, not surprisingly, either actively or tacitly supported southern secession. This should not surprise us since Northern manufacturers were discovering the wonders of “wage slavery”, and didn’t necessarily have a problem with the southern version of “property slavery”.

14. Supported a “mono-metal” currency standard. This policy is what William Jennings Bryant referred to in his famous “Cross of Gold” speech. Little remembered or understood today, this policy led to a deflation that began shortly after 1873, and lasted for a generation – condemning southern and western farmers to poverty that lasted until the New Deal.

15. Supported the violent suppression of early efforts of industrial workers to unionize.

16. Supported the acquisition of foreign colonies in the wake of the Spanish-American war.

17. Supported the armed suppression of Filipino independence.

18. Opposed anti-trust legislation.

19. Opposed child labor laws.

20. Opposed universal free public education. Some of them still do.

21. Opposed literacy for African-American citizens, in particular.

22. Supported the legal theory of “separate but equal”, a sham that led to . . .

23. Supported the establishment of “Jim Crow” in the south.

24. Opposed state laws guaranteeing minimum wages and restricting working hours for industrial workers.

25. Opposed the right to vote for women.

26. Supported prohibition.

27. Opposed the League of Nations – and continue to oppose US participation in the United Nations.

28. Were involved in countless financial and government scandals, including, manipulation of stock prices during the Civil War, rampant cronyism and nepotism during the Grant administration, the Teapot Dome scandal in the 1920’s, Watergate, the Savings and Loan crisis, the present “no bid” contracts for Halliburton – the former employer of the Vice President – and many, many more.

29. Opposed agricultural subsidies, the Tennessee Valley Authority, Rural Electrification, and almost all of the rest of the New Deal.

30. Opposed Social Security.

31. Opposed the Fair Labor Standards Act establishing the eight hour work day and overtime pay.

32. Opposed the National Labor Relations Act guaranteeing workers the right to collectively bargain.

33. Opposed US entry into World War II to fight fascism.

34. Traded with the Nazi’s during the war. Noteworthy cheap-labor conservatives “trading with the enemy” included Henry Ford and one Prescott Bush, father and grandfather to two Presidents.

35. Opposed the GI Bill of Rights.

36. Opposed creation of the United Nations.

37. Opposed the Marshall Plan.

38. Opposed FHA Mortgages.

39. Opposed the creation of Interstate Highways. These had to be billed as the “National Defense Interstate Highway System” to get some of them to go along with it.

40. Opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1957.

41. Opposed the Civil Rights of 1964.

42. Opposed the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

43. Opposed Medicare.

44. Supported both overt and covert intervention, leading to the creation of right-wing dictatorships in Iran, Guatamala, Cuba [before Castro, mind you], Nicaragua, the Dominican Republic, the Congo, Chile, Brazil, El Salvador, the Phillipines, Indonesia and many others.

45. Supported the war in Vietnam including “bombing them back to the stone age”.

46. Supported covert and illegal air strikes against Cambodia.

47. Supported domestic “surveillance” of opponents of the war, civil right supporters and other “dissidents” who believed in things like equality and democracy.

48. Opposed the Clean Air and Clean Water Acts.

49. Opposed the Equal Rights Amendment.

50. Supported shifting the tax burden from the top to the middle, and the creation of massive deficits for the purpose of bankrupting the Federal Government.

51. Opposed the act creating “family leave” – unpaid mind you.

52. Opposed and continue to oppose National Health Insurance.

53. Support taxing the wages of working people, but not passive investment income such as dividends and “capital gains”.

54. Support “vouchers” to subsidize parochial and private schools, in order to create a “two tiered” educational system. Remember, they opposed universal public education. See Item # 20, above.

55. Support “free trade” policies that allow US manufacturers to export jobs to third world cesspools.

56. Support the dictatorial regimes in those same third world cesspools.

57. Oppose restrictions on green house gasses and other pollutants.

58. Support “privitization” of Social Security, something they have hated since its inception, and which they have concocted a novel way to get rid of.

59. Oppose government support for the development of alternatives to fossil fuels, but they . . .

60. Support invasion of Middle Eastern countries like Iraq, in order to secure our supply of those same fossil fuels.

Believe it or not, this is a short list. A historian could make a career out of cataloguing all of the many and varied ways cheap-labor conservatives have stood in the way of the American values of equality, democracy, social justice and environment sustainability. The next time a cheap-labor conservative waves the flag, boasts of his “patriotism”, and brays about “American values”, show him this list.


--------------------




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philathome
post Sep 3 2006, 08:20 AM
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QUOTE(gounion @ Sep 3 2006, 08:45 AM) [snapback]290030[/snapback]

Received this via email. It says it perfectly. Conservatism unmasked:

Cheap-labor conservatives have gotten into the habit of wrapping themselves in the flag, quoting Jefferson, and holding themselves out as defenders of “American values”. In fact, from the very beginning, cheap-labor forces have opposed and obstructed realization of Jefferson’s dream of equality, democracy and social justice. Here is a short list of examples of cheap-labor conservatives obstructing of those values.

The cheap-labor conservatives:

1. Supported George III in the American Revolution. Fully a third of the population of the colonies didn’t even want independence.

2. Supported protection for the institution of slavery in the Constitutional convention. This included the bizarre insistence that slaves be counted in determining slave state representation in Congress. Slaves were people according to conservative planters, but only for purposes of counting them. Those same interests also prevented regulation of the importation of slaves prior to 1808.

3. Opposed tariffs to protect American manufacturing. Reactionary southern planters failed to grasp the need to develop our own industrial base. They preferred to operate a slave labor driven cash crop economy for the simple reason that they – the wealthy planters that is – profited from economic underdevelopment.

4. Supported “nullification”, which said that states didn’t have to enforce federal laws they didn’t like. This “theory”, such as it was, was in direct contradiction to the provision of the US Constitution that made federal law “the supreme law of the land”.

5. Supported repeal of the Missouri Compromise so as to allow slavery in places like Nebraska and the deserts of New Mexico.

6. Opposed the transcontinental railroad, because it might encourage small farmers who owned no slaves to settle in western territories. Contemporary conservative pundit, Joseph Sobran has dressed up opposition to this as a “principled” stand against “big government” proponents like Henry Clay and Abraham Lincoln.

7. Opposed the Homestead Act for the same reason.

8. Opposed freedom of speech for Southern opponents of slavery. It seems the institution of slavery became so sacred, the conservative southern planters made it a crime to speak out against it. Before the 14th amendment, freedom of speech was not required of the states.

9. Declared – contrary to Jefferson’s dictum that “all men are created equal” – that “the black man has no rights the white man is bound to respect”. This was the holding of Dred Scott v. Sandford, perhaps the single worst opinion in the history of the US Supreme Court.

10. Supported destruction of the union rather than allow Congress to so much as restrict slavery to places where it already existed.

11. Opposed the earliest civil rights legislation to enforce the 14th and 15th amendments.

12. Obstructed, intimidated and harassed newly freed slaves who attempted to exercise their Federal civil rights, including the right to vote.

13. Opposed preserving the union. Northern cheap-labor conservatives, not surprisingly, either actively or tacitly supported southern secession. This should not surprise us since Northern manufacturers were discovering the wonders of “wage slavery”, and didn’t necessarily have a problem with the southern version of “property slavery”.

14. Supported a “mono-metal” currency standard. This policy is what William Jennings Bryant referred to in his famous “Cross of Gold” speech. Little remembered or understood today, this policy led to a deflation that began shortly after 1873, and lasted for a generation – condemning southern and western farmers to poverty that lasted until the New Deal.

15. Supported the violent suppression of early efforts of industrial workers to unionize.

16. Supported the acquisition of foreign colonies in the wake of the Spanish-American war.

17. Supported the armed suppression of Filipino independence.

18. Opposed anti-trust legislation.

19. Opposed child labor laws.

20. Opposed universal free public education. Some of them still do.

21. Opposed literacy for African-American citizens, in particular.

22. Supported the legal theory of “separate but equal”, a sham that led to . . .

23. Supported the establishment of “Jim Crow” in the south.

24. Opposed state laws guaranteeing minimum wages and restricting working hours for industrial workers.

25. Opposed the right to vote for women.

26. Supported prohibition.

27. Opposed the League of Nations – and continue to oppose US participation in the United Nations.

28. Were involved in countless financial and government scandals, including, manipulation of stock prices during the Civil War, rampant cronyism and nepotism during the Grant administration, the Teapot Dome scandal in the 1920’s, Watergate, the Savings and Loan crisis, the present “no bid” contracts for Halliburton – the former employer of the Vice President – and many, many more.

29. Opposed agricultural subsidies, the Tennessee Valley Authority, Rural Electrification, and almost all of the rest of the New Deal.

30. Opposed Social Security.

31. Opposed the Fair Labor Standards Act establishing the eight hour work day and overtime pay.

32. Opposed the National Labor Relations Act guaranteeing workers the right to collectively bargain.

33. Opposed US entry into World War II to fight fascism.

34. Traded with the Nazi’s during the war. Noteworthy cheap-labor conservatives “trading with the enemy” included Henry Ford and one Prescott Bush, father and grandfather to two Presidents.

35. Opposed the GI Bill of Rights.

36. Opposed creation of the United Nations.

37. Opposed the Marshall Plan.

38. Opposed FHA Mortgages.

39. Opposed the creation of Interstate Highways. These had to be billed as the “National Defense Interstate Highway System” to get some of them to go along with it.

40. Opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1957.

41. Opposed the Civil Rights of 1964.

42. Opposed the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

43. Opposed Medicare.

44. Supported both overt and covert intervention, leading to the creation of right-wing dictatorships in Iran, Guatamala, Cuba [before Castro, mind you], Nicaragua, the Dominican Republic, the Congo, Chile, Brazil, El Salvador, the Phillipines, Indonesia and many others.

45. Supported the war in Vietnam including “bombing them back to the stone age”.

46. Supported covert and illegal air strikes against Cambodia.

47. Supported domestic “surveillance” of opponents of the war, civil right supporters and other “dissidents” who believed in things like equality and democracy.

48. Opposed the Clean Air and Clean Water Acts.

49. Opposed the Equal Rights Amendment.

50. Supported shifting the tax burden from the top to the middle, and the creation of massive deficits for the purpose of bankrupting the Federal Government.

51. Opposed the act creating “family leave” – unpaid mind you.

52. Opposed and continue to oppose National Health Insurance.

53. Support taxing the wages of working people, but not passive investment income such as dividends and “capital gains”.

54. Support “vouchers” to subsidize parochial and private schools, in order to create a “two tiered” educational system. Remember, they opposed universal public education. See Item # 20, above.

55. Support “free trade” policies that allow US manufacturers to export jobs to third world cesspools.

56. Support the dictatorial regimes in those same third world cesspools.

57. Oppose restrictions on green house gasses and other pollutants.

58. Support “privitization” of Social Security, something they have hated since its inception, and which they have concocted a novel way to get rid of.

59. Oppose government support for the development of alternatives to fossil fuels, but they . . .

60. Support invasion of Middle Eastern countries like Iraq, in order to secure our supply of those same fossil fuels.

Believe it or not, this is a short list. A historian could make a career out of cataloguing all of the many and varied ways cheap-labor conservatives have stood in the way of the American values of equality, democracy, social justice and environment sustainability. The next time a cheap-labor conservative waves the flag, boasts of his “patriotism”, and brays about “American values”, show him this list.




so for supporting all of these things,Liberals are labeled as bad for the country.
I think consevatism is a brain disease.


--------------------
LIBERAL : Tolerant, Generous, Enlightened, Broadminded, Lavish, Charitable
CONSERVATIVE: Stingy, Miserly,Regressive, Narrow-Minded,Reactionary, Bigoted, Prejudiced, Biased


On October 30, 1909 (exactly 100 years - and a few days ago - today) Woodrow Wilson (elected President in 1912) said the Democratic Party should not:

"Allow itself to be embarrassed by old formulas formulated for another age, which had other and very different questions to settle. Take the old ideal of 'as little government as possible'...It is no longer possible with the modern combinations of industry and transportation to discriminate interests of the states as they could once be discriminated. Interests once local and separate have become unified and national. They must be treated by the national government" Courtesy, New York Times
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Celene
post Sep 3 2006, 12:02 PM
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I think it's the lazy man's self-esteem builder. You can believe yourself a self-made person, that you did it all yourself, scratched your way up from the bottom, because darn it--you work harder and are smarter than the rest. All of the patting yourself on the back, so much less effort.


--------------------
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. -Aristotle
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ëonwë hussëin ma...
post Sep 3 2006, 02:40 PM
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QUOTE(gounion @ Sep 3 2006, 07:45 AM) [snapback]290030[/snapback]

Received this via email. It says it perfectly. Conservatism unmasked:

That was too long to read can you make the point in 2 - 3 paragraphs?


--------------------
Small arms - the real WMDs

If constituents write or call their congressional and state representatives about every issue, those representatives will remember who they represent and how they should vote on those issues.

A Congress that needs leadership from a president is worthless to the people they were elected to represent.


There is no place or role in the government of the United States of America for "The Market". "The Market" is not an elected local, a state or a federal government. "The Market" is not a US citizen or foreign national. "The Market" does not make law, does not pay taxes and does not vote. "The Market" is not described in the Constitution of the United States of America.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion;"
- (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams
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gounion
post Sep 4 2006, 05:07 PM
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As I see today's conservatives, and look at their history, I kinda think they really don't believe in democracy. They tend toward monarchy or authoritarianism, they don't like that unions are democratic and love the corporate autocracy, and believe the government should be ran as a corporation.

GoU


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ëonwë hussëin ma...
post Sep 4 2006, 05:47 PM
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QUOTE(gounion @ Sep 4 2006, 06:07 PM) [snapback]290699[/snapback]

As I see today's conservatives, and look at their history, I kinda think they really don't believe in democracy. They tend toward monarchy or authoritarianism, they don't like that unions are democratic and love the corporate autocracy, and believe the government should be ran as a corporation.

GoU
I'm not sure it's "conservatives" vs "capitalists" because it's a lot of governance failing their people not just here in USA. But for USA, that's why I posted the "Declaration of Independence" here on 7/4/06 and still urge people to read the "Declaration of Independence".


--------------------
Small arms - the real WMDs

If constituents write or call their congressional and state representatives about every issue, those representatives will remember who they represent and how they should vote on those issues.

A Congress that needs leadership from a president is worthless to the people they were elected to represent.


There is no place or role in the government of the United States of America for "The Market". "The Market" is not an elected local, a state or a federal government. "The Market" is not a US citizen or foreign national. "The Market" does not make law, does not pay taxes and does not vote. "The Market" is not described in the Constitution of the United States of America.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion;"
- (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams
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Chip
post Sep 4 2006, 06:26 PM
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QUOTE(philathome @ Sep 3 2006, 09:20 AM) [snapback]290089[/snapback]

so for supporting all of these things,Liberals are labeled as bad for the country.
I think consevatism is a brain disease.

So is thinking that your politics and/or religion makes you better than others.

Chip



--------------------
IPB Image
Jesus is a liberator, the Prince of Peace, our Wonderful Counselor, Savior and Friend. Who would Jesus bomb? Nobody. Who would Jesus save? Everybody. "God is neither a Republican or a Democrat." - Jim Wallis, evangelical Christian and author of God's Politics: Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It "Just because you have the right to say it, doesn't mean it's the right thing to say." - Edward R. Murrow
The 12.5 million facts union leaders don't want you to know
We are all hypocrites. Everyone judges. Willingness to compromise is a moral value. We all possess WMD, Words of Moral Divisiveness. It's less important to be right than to be understood. Lies can be offensive, but nothing offends some people like the truth. Peace cannot be waged, especially when there's a war going on inside. Strength of conviction and a high degree of confidence do not equate to assertions of superiority. If life was too easy then it wouldn't be any fun. Everyone has faith in something. 18 Parsy awards!

Pragmatic, compassionate, classical conservative, just right of center.
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Chip
post Sep 4 2006, 06:28 PM
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QUOTE(gounion @ Sep 3 2006, 07:45 AM) [snapback]290030[/snapback]

Received this via email. It says it perfectly. Conservatism unmasked:

Giving credit where credit is due:

http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/showthread.php?id=72

Information overload, a common propaganda technique.

Chip



--------------------
IPB Image
Jesus is a liberator, the Prince of Peace, our Wonderful Counselor, Savior and Friend. Who would Jesus bomb? Nobody. Who would Jesus save? Everybody. "God is neither a Republican or a Democrat." - Jim Wallis, evangelical Christian and author of God's Politics: Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It "Just because you have the right to say it, doesn't mean it's the right thing to say." - Edward R. Murrow
The 12.5 million facts union leaders don't want you to know
We are all hypocrites. Everyone judges. Willingness to compromise is a moral value. We all possess WMD, Words of Moral Divisiveness. It's less important to be right than to be understood. Lies can be offensive, but nothing offends some people like the truth. Peace cannot be waged, especially when there's a war going on inside. Strength of conviction and a high degree of confidence do not equate to assertions of superiority. If life was too easy then it wouldn't be any fun. Everyone has faith in something. 18 Parsy awards!

Pragmatic, compassionate, classical conservative, just right of center.
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gounion
post Sep 4 2006, 06:30 PM
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QUOTE(Chip @ Sep 4 2006, 07:28 PM) [snapback]290757[/snapback]

Giving credit where credit is due:

http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/showthread.php?id=72

Information overload, a common propaganda technique.

Chip

I knew I recognized it.

It's not overload, it's making a point, quite well I must say. No counter-argument has been given yet.

Instead of rebutting the points, you label it propaganda, trying to discredit it. I don't do that, I can rebut the points, too.

GoU

This post has been edited by gounion: Sep 4 2006, 06:32 PM


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bluecollarman
post Sep 4 2006, 10:03 PM
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ON THE CORRECT SIDE OF THE DEBATE
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QUOTE(Chip @ Sep 4 2006, 07:26 PM) [snapback]290755[/snapback]

So is thinking that your politics and/or religion makes you better than others.

Chip


Liberal politics are better than conservative politics. Deal with it. Religion is a non-factor in governing the US. The US Constitution, the one and only law of the land, forever guarantees that.
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gounion
post Sep 5 2006, 05:08 AM
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QUOTE(bluecollarman @ Sep 4 2006, 11:03 PM) [snapback]290957[/snapback]

Liberal politics are better than conservative politics. Deal with it. Religion is a non-factor in governing the US. The US Constitution, the one and only law of the land, forever guarantees that.

Our nation was built upon liberal politics. I'm waiting for one conservative to rebut my post. I think they won't because they can't.

GoU


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tritumi
post Sep 5 2006, 05:10 AM
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QUOTE(gounion @ Sep 5 2006, 05:08 AM) [snapback]291000[/snapback]

Our nation was built upon liberal politics. I'm waiting for one conservative to rebut my post. I think they won't because they can't.

GoU

of course they won't, they do not have a leg to stand on. the nation was built by radical liberal laissez fairre capitalists!


--------------------
Then let us again examine whether that is a sound statement, or do we let it pass, and if one of us, or someone else, merely says that something is so, do we accept that it is so? Or should we examine what the speaker means? - Socrates, Euthryphro

i have always drawn attention to the links between power and violence and how authoritarian power uses coercion and ideology. i oppose violence and coercion and will continue to do so. - tritumi, march 5, 2009

The struggle of people against power is [the] struggle of memory against forgetting. - Milan Kundera

Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. - Kenneth Boulding

The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed. - Steve Biko
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gounion
post Sep 5 2006, 05:12 AM
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QUOTE(tritumi @ Sep 5 2006, 06:10 AM) [snapback]291002[/snapback]

of course they won't, they do not have a leg to stand on. the nation was built by radical liberal laissez fairre capitalists!

Actually, no. Otherwise they wouldn't have had tariffs as one of the main sources of income. Please don't try to re-write history.

GoU


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tritumi
post Sep 5 2006, 05:16 AM
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QUOTE(gounion @ Sep 5 2006, 05:12 AM) [snapback]291005[/snapback]

Actually, no. Otherwise they wouldn't have had tariffs as one of the main sources of income. Please don't try to re-write history.

GoU

history is written by the winners, and, as folks who claim here to be good liberals are quick to advise, doesn't matter anyway. why we even have the proposition stated here that to think a thought is the same as being right.

but to step back from those opinions somewhat to the left of whopee i believe that you are also a supporter of tariffs, does that mean you are - but no, i will make no assumptions...


--------------------
Then let us again examine whether that is a sound statement, or do we let it pass, and if one of us, or someone else, merely says that something is so, do we accept that it is so? Or should we examine what the speaker means? - Socrates, Euthryphro

i have always drawn attention to the links between power and violence and how authoritarian power uses coercion and ideology. i oppose violence and coercion and will continue to do so. - tritumi, march 5, 2009

The struggle of people against power is [the] struggle of memory against forgetting. - Milan Kundera

Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. - Kenneth Boulding

The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed. - Steve Biko
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aztekman
post Sep 5 2006, 05:19 AM
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QUOTE(gounion @ Sep 3 2006, 08:45 AM) [snapback]290030[/snapback]

1. Supported George III in the American Revolution. Fully a third of the population of the colonies didn’t even want independence.

One of the biggest reasons we had a revolution, was John Hancock. Not exactly a liberal.

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aztekman
post Sep 5 2006, 05:20 AM
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oops

This post has been edited by aztekman: Sep 5 2006, 05:28 AM
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aztekman
post Sep 5 2006, 05:23 AM
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This post has been edited by aztekman: Sep 5 2006, 05:28 AM
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gounion
post Sep 5 2006, 05:27 AM
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QUOTE(aztekman @ Sep 5 2006, 06:19 AM) [snapback]291010[/snapback]

One of the biggest reasons we had a revolution, was John Hancock. Not exactly a liberal.

John Hancock was a reason we had a revolution?

GoU


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Enjoying the implosion of the Republican Party and Conservatism

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gounion
post Sep 5 2006, 05:28 AM
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QUOTE(tritumi @ Sep 5 2006, 06:16 AM) [snapback]291008[/snapback]

history is written by the winners, and, as folks who claim here to be good liberals are quick to advise, doesn't matter anyway. why we even have the proposition stated here that to think a thought is the same as being right.

but to step back from those opinions somewhat to the left of whopee i believe that you are also a supporter of tariffs, does that mean you are - but no, i will make no assumptions...

History DOES matter. I'm just tired of the revisionism on the right, such as the "JFK was a conservative" crap that is being tried on the board right now.

GoU


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tritumi
post Sep 5 2006, 05:30 AM
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QUOTE(gounion @ Sep 5 2006, 05:27 AM) [snapback]291016[/snapback]

John Hancock was a reason we had a revolution?

GoU

i am glad you asked that question. i will enjoy coming back later to read the exchange. somebody's got their powdered wig on backwards, methinks.


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Then let us again examine whether that is a sound statement, or do we let it pass, and if one of us, or someone else, merely says that something is so, do we accept that it is so? Or should we examine what the speaker means? - Socrates, Euthryphro

i have always drawn attention to the links between power and violence and how authoritarian power uses coercion and ideology. i oppose violence and coercion and will continue to do so. - tritumi, march 5, 2009

The struggle of people against power is [the] struggle of memory against forgetting. - Milan Kundera

Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. - Kenneth Boulding

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